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Char
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Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 142
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 Posted: Feb 28 2007 Post subject: |
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Someone cook two butts, one fat side up and one down. Compare them.
Let's put this debate to rest.
Has anyone done this yet?
I personally see a more pronounce smoke ring with the fat cap down. But what do I know, I'm still green.
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roxy
BBQ All Star
Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 9331
Location: Wasaga beach, Ontario
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| Posted: Feb 28 2007 Post subject: |
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I just realized that I did infact cook one up one down this past weekend as you can see by this pic...
They were both the same as far as I could tell. The fat cap on the "fat down" butt was totally rendered out and was some good eats unlike the "fat up" one which still had some fat left. Both were moist and tender and I cooked them at 300 degrees...  And I used a Treager!! 
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Chargriller Akorn
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Char
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Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 142
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| Posted: Feb 28 2007 Post subject: |
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Roxy I totally agree with you.
Butts don't need the " extra " fat. Fat side up creates greasy meat.
Now I do the oppisite with brisket, brisket needs the extra fat. I do briskets fat side up.
How did the smoke rings compare?
The only place where I usually don't get much of a ring, if any at all, is under the fat cap layer. I guess you could even trim it off and get a nice ring all over.
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roxy
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Joined: 29 May 2005
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Location: Wasaga beach, Ontario
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| Posted: Feb 28 2007 Post subject: |
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Thats interesting. I do briskets fat down so I can get that sick smokering that gets me all tingly inside...
The smoke ring was the same in both butts. Not as intense as what I get with my chargriller though.
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skybob
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Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 1533
Location: Wichita, KS
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| Posted: Feb 28 2007 Post subject: |
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I thought that my teeth were going to hit the floor when I recognized that Traeger there Roxy  Thought that you'd sworn off them last fall. It does look like the butts were treated right in there.  |
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Alien BBQ
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 5426
Location: Roswell, New Mexico
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| Posted: Feb 28 2007 Post subject: |
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| adolpho wrote: | | BBQMAN wrote: | | I'm just glad that for once I'm not in trouble on this one! |
You're killing me BBQMAN!  
This is another one of those arguments where you know what one person means but others are trying to get him to say it specifically correct. I doubt Alien means he watches smoke go into the pores literaly. I'm sure he's talking about after the cook he observes the result, or am I giving Alien too much credit. Alien, please let us know what, when or how the observation is taking place. And remember, theories are made as a result of observations, so they go hand in hand.
But above all that, and I'm sure BBQMAN and some others are with me on this, who cares! Cook it fat side up or down! If it's good, that's all that matters.
BTW, I cook my butts fat side down unless it has skin on it, then I cook with meat side down. I do this because....WHO CARES, it works for me. |
Yes you are right Aldopho, Mike and I have been down this path many times and judging from its intensity, this probably won’t be the last time. I knew that when I answered Smokin Okie’s post that it was most likely a land mine but I felt that he really wanted an answer. What I did not expect was Mikes rant and something about flying monkeys. Anyway what I did say is…
“I noticed that if I had it meat side up initially, the smoke that settled on the meat initially got into the pores better and thus clung to the meat better when it was flipped.”
Anyone who has ever dealt with soot or charcoal knows that it gets into the pores of your skin and clings. You have really got to scrub to get it out. Would it not operate the same way on the meat in the smoker?
This is the word picture I was thinking of when I said “it got into the pores better and thus clung to the meat better when it was flipped.”
I don’t see how mike got anything else out of the statement. He was the one that said I stuck my head in the smoker. As far as observing smoke floating on liquid, every time anyone smokes meat that has liquid on the surface it initially floats.
This is what I actually said “ The smoke that was clinging to the liquid on the bottom was never really hitting the meat because it collected on the surface of the liquid and then dripped off on to the bottom of the cooker.”
If the smoke (that is floating on the liquid) doesn’t touch the meat, then it has got to go somewhere, so it rolls off the meat and drips down on to the bottom of the smoker. That seems kinda straight forward to me. I included a photo of the floating smoke so it is clear what I am talking about. In fact, I have documentation of an entire experiment with photos; If Mike really wants to continue this on another post. But I won’t bore you with it now. I agree with you on who really cares as long as it tastes good. The only thing that bothered me in this repartee is his accusations of how I view the intelligence of this forum’s members. I have nothing but high regard for everyone’s opinions and beliefs. But then again, he was quoting from what HE wrote and not me.
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skybob
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Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 1533
Location: Wichita, KS
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| Posted: Feb 28 2007 Post subject: |
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What in the world is that a photo of there Alien, maybe a smoked space alien?? Add a couple droopy ears and it could be a twin to Yoda  |
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Alien BBQ
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
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Location: Roswell, New Mexico
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allsmokenofire
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Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Posts: 5051
Location: Oklahoma
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| Posted: Feb 28 2007 Post subject: |
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| Alien BBQ wrote: | “I noticed that if I had it meat side up initially, the smoke that settled on the meat initially got into the pores better and thus clung to the meat better when it was flipped.”
Anyone who has ever dealt with soot or charcoal knows that it gets into the pores of your skin and clings. You have really got to scrub to get it out. Would it not operate the same way on the meat in the smoker? |
First off, you're talking about 2 different things here. You said you NOTICED the smoke settled into the pores better and "clung to the meat" when you flipped it. I still would like to know how you observed this. If you had said you OBSERVED that charcoal gets into the pores of your skin and you really have to scrub to get it out, that's a whole other Oprah show....but thats not what you said.
| Alien BBQ wrote: |
This is the word picture I was thinking of when I said “it got into the pores better and thus clung to the meat better when it was flipped.”
I don’t see how mike got anything else out of the statement. |
The reason I got what I got out of your statement is you said you observed it, not that you were making a "word picture"(??) | Alien BBQ wrote: |
He was the one that said I stuck my head in the smoker. As far as observing smoke floating on liquid, every time anyone smokes meat that has liquid on the surface it initially floats.
This is what I actually said “ The smoke that was clinging to the liquid on the bottom was never really hitting the meat because it collected on the surface of the liquid and then dripped off on to the bottom of the cooker.”
If the smoke (that is floating on the liquid) doesn’t touch the meat, then it has got to go somewhere, so it rolls off the meat and drips down on to the bottom of the smoker.
That seems kinda straight forward to me. |
What seems straight forward to me is that you might be confusing crud falling off the top of your smoker with "smoke particles". I find it extremely difficult to believe that you, or anyone else, can see actual individual smoke particles on meat, in liquid on meat, seeping into pores on meat, or clinging to meat as you flip it...period.
If you're confusing theories and observations, again, I figured someone in academia would be able to differentiate between the two. If all of this posturing is a convenient chapter in your upcoming cookbook, than so be it....more power to ya'. I think that if you ARE actually able to OBSERVE and NOTICE(your words, not mine) smoke particles cling to meat or liquid or get absorbed into meat, you're wasting your talents by writing a mere cookbook.
The only time we"go down this path" is when you make some incredulous statement about something that you expect everyone to accept as fact. The last topic of discussion was your statement that it was a "well known fact that fat renders back into the meat at 165 degrees". I asked where you got the info from and you sent me a couple of lame links about some federal regulation for cleaning a commercial smoker...and which had absolutely nothing to do with what you claimed(which, btw, you never could substantiate).
So, I guess what it boils down to is this, if you wanna talk about theories/opinions/hunches...that's great, we all have them, and I'm all ears. But when you start talking about observations and facts, I hope you'll get them straight next time.
So....let's move on. 
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BBQMAN
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Joined: 13 Jun 2005
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Location: Florida
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| Posted: Feb 28 2007 Post subject: |
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| Char wrote: | Roxy I totally agree with you.
Butts don't need the " extra " fat. Fat side up creates greasy meat.
Now I do the oppisite with brisket, brisket needs the extra fat. I do briskets fat side up.
How did the smoke rings compare?
The only place where I usually don't get much of a ring, if any at all, is under the fat cap layer. I guess you could even trim it off and get a nice ring all over. |
\
Fat side up does not create greasy meat, in my book anyway! Thousands of pounds of meat later I have yet to have someone tell me "you know Mike, I loved that pork sammich- but it was greasy"! Seeing as you admit to being "green" that is a pretty bold statement!
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BBQMAN
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BBQMAN
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Joined: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 15475
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Feb 28 2007 Post subject: |
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I cooked up this batch last night while my umpteenth pig was cooking for a pig roast! Figured if the smoker had to run all night anyway, why not! Take a close look at the pics- no grease, good smoke ring, tender and delish!
Fat side up, no flip. cooked for 8 hrs at 225-250, foiled for 4 hrs, pulled in 5 minutes!
Ummmmmmmmmmmm, Greasy!
Just in case we need further proof, I will ask the 60 or so folks at the market today what they think, and report back if needed! As they say, the "proof is in the puddin", or maybe it was that "nobody beats my meat"!
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roxy
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Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 9331
Location: Wasaga beach, Ontario
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| Posted: Feb 28 2007 Post subject: |
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Easy Mike... relax my friend. No one said your meat was greasy. In fact your meat is perfectly balanced as all good butt should be.
We could all tell by looking at your pic's but they are way too small to be able to tell a dang thing besides being able to recognize that they are of some kind of meat. Smokering, again, we will take your word for it as like I said before, pic too small, super hero magnifying vision broken, cant tell, need bigger pic....
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jminion
BBQ Fan
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 244
Location: Federal Way, WA
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| Posted: Feb 28 2007 Post subject: |
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The science is out there and I can see three going on here;
1 fat cap as it melts does not pass through meat keeping it moist. Meat's internal moisture comes from the moisture released by internal fat and connective tissue as it breaks down, that is the science.
2 smoke is not asborbed it is layed on meat, smokering does not prove that smoke is absorbed.
3. If smoke collects in the liquid on top of the peice of meat when it is flipped that lquid is then absorbed along with smoke is the theory I'm assuming. Unless that smoke is salty how is it absorbed? Simply placing meat in water osmosis doesn't occur, salt is needed. Based on Alien's observation with smoke and water somehow osmosis happens. This is bad science.
There are number of books on the subject, they will help you understand what is taking place. BBQ has it's lore but the science is bad in many cases.
Jim
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adolpho
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Joined: 03 Aug 2005
Posts: 1067
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Mar 01 2007 Post subject: |
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| BBQMAN wrote: | | ..."nobody beats my meat"! |
That's the kind of stuff done as a teenager!
Just making light of the subject, and BBQMAN you're the victim since you wrote that. That pulled pork looks good. I see your pictures fine, size doesn't matter. 
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Char
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Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 142
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| Posted: Mar 01 2007 Post subject: |
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BBQMAN
Where you " wrap " your butts, I would assume that more fat is rendered out that way, I personally do not foil butts.
I don't think that many people do.
I guess I should have clarified that in my previous post. My observations pretained to UNFOILED butts.
Don't let my newbie status fool ya, I'm catching on quickly and I'm up to giving anybody a run for their money!
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DawgPhan
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Joined: 12 May 2005
Posts: 3444
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| Posted: Mar 01 2007 Post subject: |
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| Char wrote: | BBQMAN
Where you " wrap " your butts, I would assume that more fat is rendered out that way, I personally do not foil butts.
I don't think that many people do.
I guess I should have clarified that in my previous post. My observations pretained to UNFOILED butts.
Don't let my newbie status fool ya, I'm catching on quickly and I'm up to giving anybody a run for their money! |
hmmm depends on who you are asking about foiling butts...I think that there are lots of comp guys foiling everything under the sun..the backyard guy cooking on the weekend probably doesnt mess with it...I know I do wrap at contests and when I am practing for contests, but I dont do it when just whipping up some pulled pork for grubbin... |
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DawgPhan
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| Posted: Mar 01 2007 Post subject: |
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| Char wrote: | BBQMAN
Where you " wrap " your butts, I would assume that more fat is rendered out that way, I personally do not foil butts.
I don't think that many people do.
I guess I should have clarified that in my previous post. My observations pretained to UNFOILED butts.
Don't let my newbie status fool ya, I'm catching on quickly and I'm up to giving anybody a run for their money! |
hmmm depends on who you are asking about foiling butts...I think that there are lots of comp guys foiling everything under the sun..the backyard guy cooking on the weekend probably doesnt mess with it...I know I do wrap at contests and when I am practing for contests, but I dont do it when just whipping up some pulled pork for grubbin... |
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allsmokenofire
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Joined: 26 Apr 2005
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Location: Oklahoma
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| Posted: Mar 01 2007 Post subject: |
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I agree Dawg....both times.
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Mike
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BBQMAN
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Joined: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 15475
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Mar 01 2007 Post subject: |
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I love being the victim!
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BBQMAN
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marvsbbq
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Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 6186
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| Posted: Mar 01 2007 Post subject: |
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BBQMAN.........how come no talk about the market today???? And I DON'T mean the 'stock market'
How'd things go today?? You SHOULD take some pics of your operation as it is set up at the market.......preferably with a LONG line of customers wating for some of that GREAT Q you serve up there....
You know, we all LOVE pictures............right gang????
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