POS vs Cash Register

nskitts · Newbie Joined: 14 Jun 2011 Posts: 80 Location: Jackson, OH

Which should I use with a 1200 dollar budget? I am opening a fast casual seating 100 and hopefully busy lunch crowd. My menu is going to be brutally simple at first, four meats 5 sides and family packs/combos, fountain soda, brewed tea, and possibly beer. I will be slow starting with limited advertising to get a system going in the beginning. My building is paid for along with all my equipment and I hate monthly contracts/service charges, I like to pay once and done.

I have read about Harry's system and wonder if I should go that route using Point of Sucess and building my own system, or using an iPad with Shopkeep or Square, or a pre-programmed register with a credit card swiper.

Also, I will be there 90-100% of the time in the beginning but will try and keep my regular job for a year until the raunt takes off so I wouldn't be present all the time.

Which would be best for me?
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Mr Tony's BBQ · Posted: Mar 07 2013 Post subject:

I dont have any useful insight on pos system as I use a $80.00 casio register in my vending operation, but CAN say - be sure whatever you end up with is compatable with one of the many new credit card systems out there - Square, Paypal, Payanywhere, Intuit all have rates FAR better than any of the systems they charge monthly fee's and have contracts! I cannot begin to tell you how often I have customers or suppliers who ask about my smart phone reader only to tell me how many thousands their systems cost them last year etc! My baker, just the other day, said he paid in excess of $4,000.00 for his system last year - he is in a town of less than a thousand people, competes with a grocery store next door etc....swipe fee's, monthly fee's, equipment fee's - on and on!
2.69% is all I pay on Paypal, even for AmEx, NO additional fee's, within 10 min the transaction is on my prepaid credit card they provide, and NO 1099 at end of year like many of the others do/did.
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Harry Nutczak · Posted: Mar 07 2013 Post subject:

$1,200.00 for just the Register or POS ?

Well, you could spend $60.00 on a register, and pocket the remaining $1140.00
Or put together one heck of a sweet POS system and still have enough money left to buy 2-3 registers.

I am betting you already have a desktop or a laptop to use for your POS system, so just adding $300.00 worth of software, and a printer or two is all that would be needed.

Square; I liked them for the first fiscal year, but a few things happened during our 2nd fiscal year that made me want/need to change processors.
Since many dealers of illegal drugs started using the square service for their product sales, Square Inc. was no longer happy with just a FEIN#, they wanted my personal SSN info for the processing account, I refuse to use personal numbers for our Corporation due to many legal reasons.

Then because we exceeded $100K in card sales in a few short months, there is a whole different tier of legalities and requirements that I refused to abide by with square.

There is more, but another main reason I quit square was their lack of what I consider customer service.

I had a cashier accidentally overcharge a carry-out customer, I caught it later while reconciling the register.
The Square app does not allow any refunds of any sort without the card and cardholder present, it does not allow any partial refunds either. My e-mails to squares Cust. Service e-mail got me a canned auto-responses of zero help value. By the time I got an actual agent to reply to my mailings, I was told it was beyond their time limit to issue any refunds. So I had a customer call barking at us about it until I explained that I found the charge, and tried to refund it but need him present. It was just a mess. I comped the guy a few dinners to make it right. It was a $20.00 overcharge, I could have gotten a chargeback and associated fees, and lost a customer over this simply fixed issue with our current processor.
Then we get into Squares 2.75% flat fee, I was able to negotiate my fees to .25%, and my POS software has processing for "Mercury Payment System" already embedded, I also enrolled in their Gift-Card program which has no processing fees, and allows me to load, reload, & redeem custom printed gift-cards through my POS at zero fees.

Basically, We got too big for square to work for us anymore. And having a $600.00 iPad sitting on the counter bothered me too. I am surprised it didn't walk off or get damaged.

Then one more reason I just remembered; we run 2 cashiers in our busy months, with 2 separate cash drawers on our POS, reconciling which cashier ran which card transaction got to be difficult too.

So, consider square for start-up, but be aware of their lack of customer service. For the cost of a mid-level iPad, you could have a complete POS system with a single printer to print an "all in one" receipt/prep ticket.

I went with a fairly high-performance desktop that is huge overkill for something as simple as a POS with Win-7
Avoid Win-8 if possible from the chatter i've been hearing about it, and my experience with it. Point of success software will run on almost any windows environment from W-98 SE to present flawlessly.

We use their "Premium" version, I started with standard but I was lucky enough to be chosen to beta test their latest version of premium and it adds all sort of neat features like "Future Orders" for catering and call-in orders with a specific pick-up time that I have the POS print the ticket when I want it to print in the kitchen instead of immediately. This allows us to have custom "Promise Times" & dates on the prep ticket. This has been great due to our large volume of call-in orders for pick up at a later time or date. I can have certain tickets items printed in red, different fonts, bold, underlined, etc so a modifier stands out on the ticket and the kitchen sees it readily.

I really can't praise "Point of Success" enough. Plus they have a private web forum for support, tips & tricks, feature requests, custom programming modifications for reports and such right there too.
I think they have a special right now that if you buy the current version, the upgrade to the newest version when released is free.
http://www.pointofsuccess.com/
I suggest buying local, but if you can't, try these places, at least check prices online, some local plaes like to gouge on pricing.
http://www.newegg.com/ for refurb desktops or barebones kits & monitors
and here to http://www.tigerdirect.com/ for the same hardware.
Star Micronics is my printer of choice, I suggest sticking with their product.
www.posguys.com has good pricing, but I had a return issue with them, and cannot recommend them due to that. A printer I got had a defective trigger mechanism for the cash drawer, so I got an RMA, sent it back, and they refused the return due to some BS reason. there are tons of POS supply sites on the web, buy local if you can just for the service end in case you need it.

If you want, I can list all my hardware so you can price it out.
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Just remember that the toes you may step on during your climb to the top will also be attached to the a$$es you'll be forced to kiss on your way back down!

Mr Tony's BBQ · Posted: Mar 07 2013 Post subject:

Ouch Harry - had't heard this about square, will stop singing their praises...lol - payanywhere had similar pains associated, but I have been with paypal for years via fleebay etc, so when I got their reader, it was a breeze - cant wait until I have the problems with TOO MUCH being processed theru them....my freaking bank charges me if I deposit too much CASH.....what a freaking scam!
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qfanatic01 · Posted: Mar 08 2013 Post subject:

I have square as a back up and use it for off premise events where it's a benefit to be able to take a card over other vendors who don't.

Harry, how many registers and kitchen printers can you have?
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nskitts · Newbie Joined: 14 Jun 2011 Posts: 80 Location: Jackson, OH

Harry, I would appreciate your hardware list. Also, has anyone heard of Shopkeep? It is iPad based but seems much better and was designed by a restaurant guy.
_________________
500 Gallon Propane Offset
22.5 WSM "Set it and Forget it."
Ole Hickory EL-IB

GaQ · Joined: 19 Jun 2012 Posts: 2 Location: Calhoun, Ga

We just started using Touchbistro in our second location and still use our casio pos in the first. I must say that i am totally pleased with touchbistro and it is very very easy to program and essy for the servers to learn. Another big plus for me was it is not cloud based and doesnt require a constant intrrnet connection.

RodinBangkok · Posted: Mar 08 2013 Post subject:

I would not recommend going with any software package that has a subscription type pricing scheme, there are many good small packages out there that you simply purchase. And also I would stay away from any online dependent/cloud packages if your just starting out. As Harry has indicated a good package built around a simple PC is probably the best/most robust way to start, and offers a wide variety of standard hardware options as far as drawers, printers, bar code scanners, etc.
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Harry Nutczak · Posted: Mar 08 2013 Post subject:

MikeJack · Newbie Joined: 11 Jul 2012 Posts: 42

I opened two months ago with a set-up similar to what you are describing. I put together my Point of Success system pretty cheaply using refurb components ( Check out Dell Financial's website for off lease desktops and Cowboom for a Gen 1 Ipad ). I found my elo touchscreen on Craigslist. Larry from Mo Barbecue (a contributor here) got me a deal on the software and has been very helpful along the way. We run one kitchen printer and one receipt printer. The system is so cheap and flexible there really isn't a reason not to set one up. The gains you make in speed and efficiency will more than pay for the cost of the system.

nskitts · Newbie Joined: 14 Jun 2011 Posts: 80 Location: Jackson, OH

I would like to thank you all for your advice. Mike, thanks for the tips for how to get the refurbs and also Mo..

Harry,
I would like to thank you for always offering your advice. I have searched the archives and have read your tips about smokers, POS, kitchen setup, etc, more times than you will ever know.

I honestly wonder why you take the time with noobs like me and others, but it is appreciated. I am going to go with Point of Sucess because of your recommendations and the follow ups by others. If by mentioning you when I order, you can get some kick back please let me know and I will certainly do so. You have been more helpful to me than a POS salesman so I would be happy to reciprocate the help.
_________________
500 Gallon Propane Offset
22.5 WSM "Set it and Forget it."
Ole Hickory EL-IB

Harry Nutczak · Posted: Mar 09 2013 Post subject:

daddywoofdawg · Posted: Mar 09 2013 Post subject:

I looked at the point of success website and if it was just the 299 or 599 price that would be one thing,but then your charged for the inventory software which to me is a main thing with any pos,they extra for the back office,so my math your looking at 1k in just software.So I'm still shopping.So far though my research I'm at Square or vend.Hoping for a better answer yet.
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Good BBQ is all smoke and beers!
The Dawghouse Custom vertical Gasser
Custom Made offset smoker
Char grill smoker
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nskitts · Newbie Joined: 14 Jun 2011 Posts: 80 Location: Jackson, OH

Harry Nutczak · Posted: Mar 09 2013 Post subject:

The question that I asked myself was;
"How do you inventory fresh meats and produce of different weights and yields?"
If you know of a way to inventory fresh meats, and fresh salads, could you please share it to help me out?

I looked at adding the inventory module, and quickly realized that there is no way I could make a running stable, and correct inventory tracking system work in BBQ .

For our bottled drinks, I look at what sold and tracked via the POS & barcode scanner just to see what was popular that week since we stock such a huge selection of bottled drinks. This helps me weed out the slow movers and bring in something new.
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Just remember that the toes you may step on during your climb to the top will also be attached to the a$$es you'll be forced to kiss on your way back down!

daddywoofdawg · Posted: Mar 10 2013 Post subject:

I want to keep track of the meat,Not so much down to the pound but a good idea without having do inventory every evening at closing.I have xx lbs of raw, I now have xx lbs of cooked,I sold xx lbs,I have xx beans,I need xxx beans the truck doesn't come till next week,So I need to order or go buy xx beans.When an employee does inventory and says we have xx beans, and we run out becuase there wasn't xx beans but they were lazy and just guessed.I have to learn to swim quick.Ya it's not going to be like a warehouse of we have xx parts.If there is a better way I would really like to here.I'm guessing how I could do the inventory without having to count each item each day, or guessing.
_________________
Good BBQ is all smoke and beers!
The Dawghouse Custom vertical Gasser
Custom Made offset smoker
Char grill smoker
Weber kettle

RodinBangkok · Posted: Mar 11 2013 Post subject:

With inventory the devil is in the detail. There's pretty much no way around it. If you want accurate numbers you need to track by weight, count or volume. I'm not sure of your pos capability but if you have the ability to have a bill of material for your sell items, you can track it much easier. But having said that you still need to count your inventory at different points in your process. For instance in the case of pork shoulder, you give that a part number for your system. You measure how much you received, then how much was issued for trim/prep, how much was issued to cooking, how much was returned for trim and how much was yielded from the cooking process, you get the idea, detailed tracking as you go.
You can simplify the interim steps by calculating how much raw you bought, how many portions were sold ( the bom will have the weight of the item per portion. The system will then say I bought x Kgs for the period from day 1 to day 25 and I sold y kgs (servings times bom item weight). So now you have a rough number, but where did the difference go, that is where you then need to track your processes, how much was trim, how much was cooking reduction, etc. If you start tracking this you will gain a lot of insight on where it goes, but it takes time and manpower to do detailed inventory tracking, thats where small shops usually fall down. If your going to control it, then one person needs to be responsible for each prep operations inventory, and only one in control of the store room, very important that one! You then have accountability over what is issued, without that accountability your probably not going to be able to keep accurate stock records.
It doesn't take a lot of time to do this, if you have scales available and you insist it be done. Guy goes to stock gets 4 kg iceberg its recorded by stock keeper, he preps, weighs the scrap and the finished prep returns to the stock control guy either prepped bulk iceberg, or finished salads, and records the scrap weight.
In the end you look at the inventory transactions for the item:
Rcvd 50Kg
Issue to Workinprocess trimming 50Kg
Returned 48Kg converted to ready to cook portions
issued 48kg portions to cooking
returned 34kg cooked product
Process loss calculated at 14kg
Issued product for sale 200Gm
Issued product for sale 200Gm
The issued Product transactions are automatic from the POS when an item is sold
Your inventory system will also then explode your bills of material and give you the requirements for each item. I plan on selling 200 of item x, so the system takes the bom and explodes it:
Pork butt per item 200gm / yield x 200 = xxxKg - current stock = purchase requirement
Roll Soft Burger 1 each / yield x 200 = xxx each - current stock = purchase requirement.
Simplified, but then you have min order quantities, economical order quantities, loss factors and so on.
You would be amazed at how some folks find out what their real costs are by doing detailed inventory tracking.
You can select the items to track in detail and then do a simple in and out calculation on less costly items. Bought 5000 forks, system issued from bom 4500 current count is 200 loss 300.
The first thing is a detailed BOM for all items without that your shooting in the dark.
Most inventory control systems will do all the above, but its only as good as the info you put into the system.
_________________
Rod

daddywoofdawg · Posted: Mar 11 2013 Post subject:

That sounds like just what I want to do.Now I have to figure out/make a control sheet to track this stuff.Is there any basic forms that I can change around for operation?Creating in Excel isn't my long suit.
_________________
Good BBQ is all smoke and beers!
The Dawghouse Custom vertical Gasser
Custom Made offset smoker
Char grill smoker
Weber kettle

Harry Nutczak · Posted: Mar 11 2013 Post subject:

The only way I see an accurate inventory system working for BBQ and fresh meats that are not pre-portioned (heat and eat) is if the meat is cooked, pulled, weighed, recorded, and every serving hits an integrated scale when it is prepared/served to track it. And I just do not seeing the hassle of all that being worth it.

Now if you were a burger place that got everything delivered already portioned out, and an accurate count on the box at delivery, it would be real easy to have a running inventory.

My past and current method was like this;
"If the stacks in the cooler are lower than my shoulders, I need to get another ton or two delivered ASAP"

I also do the bulk of our produce, canned/dry, and disposables through E-Sysco, There is an "Order Guide" that I scroll through online, it shows last date ordered, and the quantity delivered from my last order.
If you do not use online ordering, your rep can print an order guide for you to glance over so you do not forget the obscure items you do not get every week
My beer distributors look at my stock on hand, suggest what I should get, I approve or modify their suggestions. (I don't even serve beer yet, but get premium soft-drinks from them).

Then we have the old faithful method. A huge dry-erase board that your crew lists needed items on as they use them. Of course you will have the goobers that take the last of something and never write it down, But they do not last long around here because I like my people to take ownership of certain tasks so they have a better sense of responsibility and being needed.
_________________
Just remember that the toes you may step on during your climb to the top will also be attached to the a$$es you'll be forced to kiss on your way back down!

nskitts · Newbie Joined: 14 Jun 2011 Posts: 80 Location: Jackson, OH

I am trying to figure out the difference between the Point of Success Special Edition and the Point of Success Standard. Special Edition is free and I am thinking it might be the same as standard. You cannot find a direct comparison or even mention of Special Edition on Point of Success's website, it's on CNET.com and other download sites. I am thinking maybe I could start out with Special Edition and add the timeclock to it then upgrade to Premium after a few months.

I have my hardware purchases almost complete:
-Dell refurb computer tower from their auction site, $300
-Elo 1938L touchscreen "open box" from Tigerdirect was $540, got it for $183
-Star TSP143LAN thermal printer from PCrush for $230, paid more for the ethernet connection
-MMF Advantage cash drawer $160 from POSGuys.com
-Cradlepoint Router for 3g, 4g, and cable/dsl internet, can set up guest network and restaurant network $124 from Amazon

So, I am right at 1,000 dollars for hardware, and if I can actually hook all this up and make it work anyone can.
_________________
500 Gallon Propane Offset
22.5 WSM "Set it and Forget it."
Ole Hickory EL-IB