taking a chance, and have lots of questions!

Geronimo · Posted: Sep 25 2012 Post subject:

Opening any new business venture is risky at best. There are many that fail and a few that make it...more fail than succeed.

There are many, many factors that determine ones success as well as what the owner himself considers a success.

Some restaurant types allow for a learning curve (Learn as you go) while others don't (You best have all your ducks in a row before opening).

There have been many chain restaurants open only to close in very short time. Was it because they didn't know what they were doing? Bad location? (They do surveys). Bad economy? (Easiest to blame), bad management?

Guess I will have to continue this later, the wife is done with her dentist appt and ready to go..
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Where rumors end and legend lives forever...

RodinBangkok · Posted: Sep 25 2012 Post subject:

Here's a link to a business plan outline that I think has the proper sections, and also asks the questions involved with those sections. It is not specific to food service, but if you use this as a guide and answer all the questions in detail it will help you understand what you need to get started in any small business.

http://agmarketing.extension.psu.edu/business/startabusness/businessplanoutline.pdf

Then do a simple expense budget on a spread sheet:
Across the top months
down the left side expense accounts, salaries, rent, utilities, etc. At the bottom sum those, then below that sum make an income field, then below that a variance calc field, Income - expense.
Below that a field for capital investment and another for capital equipment expense. This gives you a quick way to see how your plan will play out, when you will run out of working capital, when you can afford to add equipment, or employees.
Have all this in your head and down in writing. Then when you feel the time is right to take the next step you already have a pro forma business plan setup for someone else to look at. I've set up all my ventures this way, some I've shelved for years and came back to, but at least doing the exercise will help you understand all the details.
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Rod

qfanatic01 · Posted: Sep 25 2012 Post subject:

Guys, I was actually giving a positive response. I was suggesting you better have your troops behind you and expect a long, hard battle. Not suggesting that you couldn't be successful. I chose BBQ because I believed it is the right choice for this economy in my market. Customer value is pretty good as I suggested. In my market BBQ is under represented. Is it risky, yes. I do agree with others that inexperience is usually a deal breaker. This is not a learn as you go environment, you better have at least a solid background in the industry and then do a fare amount of R&D to insure you have a top quality product and procedures to insure you can offer that product at a consistent quality throughout the day or for the time you plan to serve before you even consider throwing down. We still aren't perfect, but constantly work on it. Those who succeed without the experience or effort either bought their way in or have some incredible luck!!!!!!!!!! This country's economy is not going to turn around for a long time. Our government, regardless of party, has given us smoke and mirrors for the past 30 years. They primarily represent special interest not you and I, unless your a multimillionaire or vocal minority. The good news is that people have to eat and there are enough folks out there in some areas that go out to eat where some folks can build a new business. Are you in that area? Can you afford to build the business long term? Every situation is different, it's your job to figure that out. Many people on this forum have shared some key information for your success here including their menus via their web sites, marketing has been discussed, holding equipment and reheating have also been frequent topics. Everyone has their own variation, are some better than others? maybe, but if it works for them that is all that matters. BBQ is different everywhere you go and that is part of why people go out of their way to sample it. The goal is to be consistently good in most of your customer's opinion thus creating repeat and referral business. You won't please everyone and you will have some bad days, but if those are the exceptions you just might be around for a while if there are enough people to support your bottom line. You can have the best BBQ in the world but if you can't get enough people through the doors to buy it you will eventually run out of money.
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The lessons are in the customer's criticism. They aren't always right. The rewards are their satisfaction.

MikeJack · Newbie Joined: 11 Jul 2012 Posts: 42

I don't know if the OP has the skills to succeed or not. Experience is valuable but it is not everything. Look at Moonie's posts. This guy could be the next Moonie. That being said, he should RUN away from that building. I believe he is making an emotional decision about a specific location. We are currently negotiating with a couple landlords and they are very willing to work with you right now. It is a buyers market. This guy should be looking for a second generation location that has some equipment in place. Once again, see Moonie's posts. Every dollar he doesn't have to spend to open increases his chances to succeed. I think alot of first timers sink because they think all will be good from day one.

camdentom · Posted: Sep 26 2012 Post subject:

Good post Mike. Same can be said of TonyQ. To the best of my knowledge, he had little or no experience in the BBQ business and his business seems to be thriving. I'm thinking that he opened up right around the time that the economy hit the ditch.

ceedubya · Posted: Sep 27 2012 Post subject:

to set the record straight on a few things.

1. I did ask for all opinions, and welcome them. I did not however ask for the personal attacks and teenage bickering. feel free to offer advice and criticism to me, keep those directed at someone else to yourself.

2. I understand the economy is down, but for many that is the time to grow. I am building a business plan that is better suited to these times than the last 5 star wannabe restaurants that have tried to open in this town.

3. Montana has not been hit nearly as hard as the rest of the country, and our primary industry in this town is government, one that I don't see shrinking for some time.

4. I never said I did not have business experience, and to say so is pretty presumptive on your part. I own (or have owned) several businesses, manage hundreds of thousands of dollars in security projects including contract documents, project magagement, engineering, etc. I was asking for BBQ specific info on figuring food costs, etc based on your experience.

5. I will be seeking some financial backing, but plan to keep it to a minimum.

6. I will not have to rely on this as income for some time. but will need to provide an income for an employee.
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The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over - Hunter S. Thompson

ceedubya · Posted: Sep 27 2012 Post subject:

now, a follow up to my story.

as I said, the original location fell through. I am looking at a few other options, but only 1 stands out. A good friend owns a shop that leases a space that is inside and connected to the brewery. He is going a different direction and will be moving out soon. the space is already outfitted with a hood in what would be the prep kitchen area, a perfect room for the smoker, floor drains, has seating space, restrooms, and a door that would allow direct access to the tap room customers. It sits on the corner of the street so has great visibility, and is just around the corner from the first spot I looked at. Best of all, itscheaper than the other one!

None of this would happen until this spring, if it does
happen at all. So we will just have to wait and see.

also, still considering the food truck / trailer option. that would allow me to serve the tap room for dinner, the capital complex for lunch, etc.
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The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over - Hunter S. Thompson

Mr Tony's BBQ · Posted: Sep 27 2012 Post subject:

I started when the economy was at its worst - it was cook or go on welfare....ZERO restaurant experience [ unless you count washing dishes 1 night back in 1978 ] I started on a snowmobile trailer with my offsets and webbers bungied to it and 20 years of remodeling / building experience as a general contractor. Within a year I bought my current trailer [ food truck basically] and have individuals approaching me to open up in their building - something I am not yet confident enough in the future in doing so as I am doing ok right now , may or may not some day.... I by NO MEANS am making it rich,do not have a nest egg or second business to rely on - but have yet to miss a mortgage payment, supplier bill or pay a helper late. It can be done, I have "survived" in a town of 1200 people selling Q. here and for miles around here - news of good food spreads like wild fire!!!
I agree that Q is a destination food - I have had people stop in while passing bye, one from 60 or so miles away that to this day makes a pilgrimage to eat my brisket, even brought his BIL from Arizona here when he was visiting Cool

I have had people pay me to travel 150 miles as they had had my Q at a sporting event etc and knew it was better than anything their hometown had to offer and wanted to impress their guests. Same can and will happen in a raunt, there are quite a few I have only seen via the Ring that I too desire to stop in some day, and even have planned vacations to do so.
PERSONLLY - I believe if your Q is good, and we have no reason to believe it isnt, THIS culture [ not so much this economy] WILL sustain your venture seeing you have "self employed" backround and are willing to put your ever waken moment into it to ensure it succeeds - I have seen SOOOOO many see how easy it is to run a business [ yea right ] only to go out on their own and fall face first - because they managed a mini mart, were a jobsite foreman or some crap, thinking that that was all it took...worked their 8-10 hour shift and then spent the night in a titty bar..... or got a degree in this or that, so they were destined to greatness, while sitting in a titty bar....I personally have no degree or education in hospitality or finance - nor do I sit in titty bars...but simply see the world around me, how it works and what it takes to survive. I am currently working almost twice the hours I did 5 years ago to ensure success, but thats what it takes today! Employees come in a little later, and leave a little sooner some days - they understand that if Tony aint making no money, they wont be either soon.....
As far as someone praying on closing businesses -Bull $hit! One would be a FOOL to NOT watch craigslist, auctions or even the local papers for great deals on raunt equipment etc....I paid $600 for my 1 year old $2400.00 prep cooler, and got great deals on a bunch of misc items so a guy could make his house payment - traveled an hour and a half to see it and didnt bicker the price a dime....Used raunt supply houses are full of equipment - check them out too. Yes, TONS of raunts failed in the last couple years, the ones that were already borderline when the $hit hit the fan amongst a plethora of other reasons - should we leave that equipment in storehouses for the mice to live in, or actually help the individuals out as we help ourselves succeed!
ceedubya, I TRULY wish you all the best and encourage you to continue to look into this and make your dream a reality - if a wood-butcher hack like me can do it, pert near anyone can! I aint the biggest, brightest or most successful guy on this thread, but am more than willing to lend an ear or help where I can - as MANY here are. Its how I got where I am today!
Just remember, nightmares are dreams too.... Shocked

_________________
Money Maker
Scrapper
Mr Tony's Kitchen http://www.thesmokering.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=67601
Being Blessed with income from my passion!
WWW.MRTONYSBBQ.COM

camdentom · Posted: Sep 27 2012 Post subject:

excellent post Tony.

Geronimo · Posted: Sep 28 2012 Post subject:

Man if Mr Tony's BBQ post doesn't encourage you nothing will. Wink

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Where rumors end and legend lives forever...

ceedubya · Posted: Oct 29 2012 Post subject:

Mr. Tony.... awesome!

a quick update with details to follow, things have not worked out like I had hoped at the original location(s) due to fueding neighboring businesses. I have no desire to get involved with a bunch of drama.

However, a new option has come into play. the location is not quite as ideal, but it is already setup with 2 kitchens with hoods and suppression, refrigeration, sinks, walk in cooler, tables, etc. etc. It is attached to a casino / bar that would be able to serve alcohol to my customers And the lease is less money. I need to take some time to think on this one, but will post additional details soon.
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The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over - Hunter S. Thompson

ceedubya · Posted: Dec 13 2012 Post subject:

Just checking in to let you all know things are still (slowly) progressing. Not wanting to jump into anything head first to find an empty pool, I am taking it slow.

I have 2 locations now that I am playing with, the one already mentioned next to the casino. I have held meetings with all city depts. I can think of, and am working up a business plan. I have made somewhat of a commitment to the first location to open this spring (april / may) depending on everything coming back from the health and city planning depts ok.

The health dept was not used to this type of restaurant until the place on the other side of town opened early in 2011 (it only lasted 3 months due to bad management and worse food). But, due to that they have set up some "rules" that apply to a business like this one. I say this as I have the opportunity to get a variance for up to 6 months to put the cooker outside to get things started. I have to finish my kitchen plan and submit for approval first.

the adventure continues!
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The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over - Hunter S. Thompson

ceedubya · Posted: Mar 26 2013 Post subject:

Well, here we are several months later and not much further ahead. I have a location, an architect (its an old building, need input for the kitchen hood design and a few other things), am working on a cabaret license, a working partner of sorts to run the grill and kitchen, and a lot of questions still.

We have found 2 locations that work really well, but I think have settled on just the one. It is in the new "downtown" area, surrounded by offices, law firms, the only movie theater in town, and several other restaurants. Lots of traffic (both vehicle and foot) center of town, and good parking.

I have an option to purchase a cabaret license from a someone I know here in town. The state of MT has a quota system, so there are none available from the dept of revenue. You have to purchase one on the private market, and the start around $20K. I will find out today if it is really available. He was already working with another party, but they had failed to come up with the money. If I don't get this one, there are a couple others on the market in the same price range.

I am trying to find out what the requirements are going to be for a hood, and not getting far. I plan to vent the smoker outside the building, so my understanding is I shouldn't need one for that. the AHJ is less than helpful here. Also don't know if I need a hood for a flat top grill and deep fryers, but I believe I do.

This location has a nice kitchen with walk in cooler and walk in freezer, sinks, fridges, etc. it does not have a hood, though.

I have a meeting with the AHJ (fire marshall) this week, the health dept, the architect, and then hopefully the bank!
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The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over - Hunter S. Thompson

Harry Nutczak · Posted: Mar 26 2013 Post subject:

Hood and fire suppression:

If you are creating "Grease Laden Vapors" from cooking on an appliance that is capable of exceeding 373 degrees (or something close to that) you will need fire suppression with a certain class hood.

A few resources to help you determine what needs a class-3 hood are the website for alto-shaam, and hoodmart.

A BBQ pit, Pizza Oven & other such appliances do not require hoods or fire suppression. Allegedly a study was done to determine what temperature produces flammable vapors, and it is around 373 (going from memory) Pizza ovens do exceed that, but your not making grease in them.

Flat-top yes, fryers yes,
BBQ-Pit No, convection oven No,

Zoning is where you'll want to go to for guidance, but please make them show you the exact statute they are going by!
I have had many cases where these government officials misquote, misinterpret, and straight out lie about laws and regulations for one reason or another.
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Just remember that the toes you may step on during your climb to the top will also be attached to the a$$es you'll be forced to kiss on your way back down!

RodinBangkok · Posted: Mar 27 2013 Post subject:

If your doing hood installation for the first time, also take into consideration your make up air. This is often ignored when people put in hoods. The size of your hood really needs to be engineered to the space and how the air that's pulled out is replaced and at what level and where it comes from. Understanding this can save a lot in heating or A/C costs. If your hood is pulling your make up air from your air conditioned space, then its a big waste of that cooled air. A new hood system should be designed so the make up air is available in the area of the equipment being vented and from an outside source, not your environmentally controlled area.
Be careful of any hood system that is short circuit, where the air comes into the hood and back out, worst design possible, but they still sell them that way.
Here's a link to some good info on hood design and make up air. I've always preferred putting the make up air intake low in the area of the equipment being vented. That way its pulled up around the equipment and out the hood, has less effect on the room air.
http://www.fishnick.com/ventilation/designguides/
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Rod

ceedubya · Posted: Mar 27 2013 Post subject:

great info guys, thanks!

I spoke to the property management again today and let her know our intention to take occupancy this summer. The first cabaret option fell through, but I have already contacted the Realtor representing the other 2 and plan to put a deposit down to hold one of them.

the health dept has set up some crazy rules for this type of establishment. The smoker would basically require 4 walls and a roof. So, having it outside would not work. The plan is to mount it either through the wall or vent it through the roof. However, I was hoping to keep it outside for awhile to get the doors open and start making some $$. When I spoke to the health dept, I was led to believe that I can get approved for a short term variance that would allow me to do this.

I will be back in with the architect on Friday and will get some pics to post along with the floor plan.
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The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over - Hunter S. Thompson

Harry Nutczak · Posted: Mar 27 2013 Post subject:

qfanatic01 · Posted: Mar 28 2013 Post subject:

Sounds like they are working with the same out dated codes as Minnesota. Why can't they adopt the current federal codes??
I had a trailer built to put mine in while I was saving up to remodel my restaurant, 4 walls, floor and ceiling. It's for sale now that my other smokers are up and running through the wall of the restaurant. Check out the cover page of my web site for my new set up.
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The lessons are in the customer's criticism. They aren't always right. The rewards are their satisfaction.

ceedubya · Posted: Mar 28 2013 Post subject:

Harry Nutczak · Posted: Mar 28 2013 Post subject:

Will you be using an NSF certified pit?

That will make a very large difference right away.

Although my first inspector approved my mobile pit (he would have rather seen something else) when we first started, he was very pleased when we got the NSF approved Oyler onsite and used that as our primary pit.

Since we have started as a restaurant, many other places wanted to do BBQ too. and wanted to use DIY pits made from retired 275 gallon fuel-oil drums and other such recycled products, and they wanted to cook 40-50 feet from their kitchen, on a gravel parking lot. So they got shot down. An NSF Pit close to your licensed kitchen has the best chance of approval.

here is a link to the federal guidelines on outdoor cooking:
http://www.foodprotect.org/media/guide/recommguidancepermoutdoorcookingest.doc.pdf

Learn them, learn them well.
I actually suggest printing them, and using a hilighter marker to outline specific rules and requirements.

Forward a copy of your pit specs to the department, Make them very aware this is not a DIY unit, and it is a commercial BBQ pit. Have pictures of outdoor pits at places down south, explain why it has to be this way, explain how there is no possible way for insect incursion, or sabotage by others.

My pit gets locked overnight if I am cooking or not, I have a decorative fence around it to keep the drunks away. I explained the only thing a person could access is the firebox, and showed what happens of the firebox door is opened at the wrong time (Flashover) and how there is no way for rodents or insect to get inside when in operation.
_________________
Just remember that the toes you may step on during your climb to the top will also be attached to the a$$es you'll be forced to kiss on your way back down!