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Bresola

 
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dmsintexas
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26 11 1:28 am    Post subject: Bresola Reply with quote

3 lb Eye of Round
3 TBS Morton Tender Quick
2 tsp black pepper
2 tsp paprika
2 tsp garlic powder
2 tsp red pepper flakes

I let the beef take the cure for ten days, rinsed, and then air dried for about four weeks when it lost ~30% of its weight. The process went very smooth but the end product was disappointingly bland. Will kick up the spices next time.

http://thesaltedpig.blogspot.com/2011/02/bland-bresaola.html
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Harry Nutczak
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26 11 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be weary about using tender quick for that product. You should really be using cure#2 for bresaola since it has an extended aging time at temperatures which are perfect for growing a the most deadly strain of bacteria known to mankind.

Aging should also be done at around 85% humidity so you do not get "Case Hardening" which creates an even better place for bacteria to grow.

Guys, when we dry age, we are putting raw meat in the middle of the best environment to grow bacteria such as C. Botulinum.
Your slat concentration needs to be correct, as does your cure, and the proper formulation of cure is just as important to do this safely.

I am not trying to bash, but that recipe is dangerous, please do not eat that meat that was cured and aged with that cure formulation and not aged in the proper environment.

When I get home tonight, I will post the proper salt/cure ratio and the temperatures/humidity that a bresaola needs to be safely aged and edible
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dmsintexas
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27 11 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry, I appreciate your input and respect your comments about safety. That being said, I will also respectfully disagree Smile .

There is much confusion about cures out there. Perhaps we can use this thread to clarify?

Cure #2 is composed of salt, nitrite and nitrate. More exactly, for each pound of salt Cure #2 contains 1 oz of nitrite and 0.64 oz of nitrate. If we look at Ruhlman's recipe for bresaola (pg 200) he uses 25 grams salt, 30 grams sugar, 4 grams Cure #2 and 17 grams of other seasonings for a total weight of 76 grams. You can do the math any way you want but it comes up with a nitrite content of 0.3 wt% (0.24 grams) and a nitrate content of 0.2 wt% (0.16 grams).

If you look at my recipe I used 3 TBS of MTQ which weighs in at 50 grams. The ingredient list for Tender Quick shows it contains 0.5% nitrate and 0.5% nitrite. Thus I applied 0.25 grams of nitrite and 0.25 grams of nitrate. I am actually being more aggressive in my application of nitrite/nitrate than suggested by Ruhlman. Please also note that I am using a commercial product at the application rate suggested by the manufacturer.

I will also suggest that the picture shows zero indication of case hardening. I've got my curing chamber pretty well tuned in and this is not an issue for me. This baby cured great...it's just not as tasty as I had hoped.
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Harry Nutczak
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28 11 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is where the difference lies between nitrite in cure #1 and nitrates in cure #2

Think of nitrite as an instant release substance

Think of nitrate as an extended release substance.

I am not going to go into the actual chemical reactions involved, but the reason you need cure #2 in items aged over weeks and even months is to take advantage of the nitrates converting to nitrites over time for continued protection against harmful bacteria.

Cure #1 blows it's wad in the first few days, where cure #2 is a long acting product specifically designed for long cure times in meats that are not heat-treated. It contains nitrites to work immediately, and nitrates which convert to nitrites over time.
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dmsintexas
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01 11 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry, I am not arguing about the role of nitrite versus nitrate.

Your posts are implying that nitrate is not present in Morton Tender Quick and that simply is not correct.
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Harry Nutczak
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01 11 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmsintexas wrote:
Harry, I am not arguing about the role of nitrite versus nitrate.

Your posts are implying that nitrate is not present in Morton Tender Quick and that simply is not correct.


If you are so positive about tender quick being the correct formulation for dry-aged meats, please provide a cite to it.

I am not trying to be a dick here, but when we ferment, and dry-age raw meats, we are dealing with a product that is well known for cultivating the most deadly toxin known to mankind. And that bacteria is C. Botulinum.
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SoEzzy
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01 11 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everything I've read, says you don't need #2 for bacon or quick cure meats, but anything that is going for the longer cure, air drying and removing moisture over extended periods should be done with #2 cure.

At the end of the day, you will all do what you feel is right...I'd hate to hear down the line that you caused problems and illness, (even death), because it will do no one any good to be able to say, "I told you so"!

I agree with Harry on this one, but as I say, it is your choice how you cure your meat.

All people reading any thread on these or any other forum, should do their own extensive research, and feel happy with their production methods before contemplating curing any meat.

See disclaimer below!

I've done pastrami, and corned beef, belly bacon, buckboard bacon and ham, but I have not got the facilities to hang meat for a long controlled drying time, with accurately controlled humidity / temperature, so I've not gone really deep into it.
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T00lman
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01 11 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not trying to be a dick .


stop sugar coating things harry Laughing
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dmsintexas
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01 11 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WTFIGO?????????

Harry, did you even read my second post????

I gave a recipe from "the expert", Ruhlman, and even cited the page number of his freakin book! I then showed how my recipe is exactly the same as his with regard to nitrite AND nitrate.

Yes! You need nitrate for a long cure material such as this.
Yes! Nitrate is present in cure #2.
Yes! Nitrate is present in Morton Tender Quick!

And Hell Yes..If you are able to do math you can substitute MTQ for Cure #2.

This is insane.

Good luck.
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Inner10
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01 11 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm trying to understand things here:

Tender Quick has the same ratio of nitrite to nitrate.

#2 Cure has a higher ratio of nitrite to nitrate.

Nitrite is fast acting, nitrate is slow release for long cures.

By that logic shouldn't Tender Quick be a better product for long cures?
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dmsintexas
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13 11 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Inner10,

I wouldn't say that MTQ is better than Cure #2 but, when used properly, can be utilized for simliar purposes. The BIG trick is that most recipes are written for Cure #2 and MTQ CANNOT be substituted directly on a one for one basis.

That is, if a recipe calls for 4 grams of Cure #2 then you CANNOT substitute 4 grams of MTQ. However, if you know how much nitrate/nitrite are in each product and are willing/able to do the math, then MTQ can be utilized in many recipes calling for Cure #2. Because the ratio of nitrite/nitrate is different in the two products the end result will not be identical but will be well within safety margins.

A lot of people have heard the phrase, "You cannot substitute Cures in a recipe." and go by the phrase religiously. It is excellent advice to follow if you do not understand the percentage composition of the different cures. However, if you do understand your compositions and are able to formulate correctly then it really doesn't matter if your nitrate comes from Cure #2, MTQ or directly from potassium nitrate.
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Inner10
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15 11 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought MTQ was Sodium Nitrate and Nitrite...not Potassium Nitrate/Nitrite?

Would that have repercussions?
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Jogeephus
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24 11 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any of the cures have the same formulation with the exception of Morton's. Morton's has a heavier salt and/or sugar combination than other mixes. A rule of thumb - which I haven't used nor do I plan to - is if you MUST substitute Morton's in a recipe do not add any other salt the recipe may call for. Morton's is used at 1 tsp per pound of meat. However Morton's Instacure and Sugar Cure are interchangeable between themselves.

Ie Cure 1, Insta-Cure 1, DQ 1, Prague Powder is 1oz of Sodium Nitrite (6.25 %) to 1 lb. of salt and is used at 1 level teaspoon of cure for 5 lbs of meat.

Cure 2 is a mixture of 1 oz. of Sodium Nitrite (6.25 %) along with .64 oz .of Sodium Nitrate (4 %) to 1 lb. of salt and is used generally at a rate of 1 tsp per 5 lbs of meat.

A good way of keeping these straight is to remember that the cure 2 types are like tylenol. They are slow release and the nitrate breaks down with time transforming into nitrite to give a longer protection hence it is used only for longer curing methods. Unless you dry cure or ferment there is no need to use this one.

Hope this is helpful.
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dmsintexas
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13 11 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

inner10,

The repercussions of the cation (potassium vs sodium) are minimal. What is important are the solubility constants and the dissociation constants. That is, how easily does the compound dissolve and how easy is it for the nitrite/nitrate to go do other chemistry. As far as simple salts are concerned sodium and potassium are nearly (but not exactly) similar. They both readily dissolve with their nitrite/nitrate complexes and since they are both mono-ionic they easily release their partner ions to go do the important work of curing.
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