General Question re: importance of appearance

[compound13]

Just curious - never entered a competition, probably never will. just watch a lot of food shows, backyard cook on weekends and kick around the forums.

Question: Why the importance on appearance of one's turn in boxes? I could understand certain criteria need to be met, like number of pieces - and i can certainly understand the importance of the appearance of the actual meat (smoke ring, sauce, etc) - but i can't understand why there's any bother put to the type of lettuce used or how the meats are arranged in the box.

Also, it seems to me that if you really wanted to be fair then the appearance should be judged by a team who does NOT eat the meat. If i understand the traditional setup correctly (and I probably don't) the box is passed around for inspection before the judges take their sample. As I'm sure everyone has heard before "you eat with all your senses" so it would follow that it's POSSIBLE that poor appearance could adversely effect taste grades (or vice versa).

Wouldn't a more fair way of doing it involve appearance judges separate from taste ones?

Again, i'm just wondering. I have nothing against appearance or cleanliness in general

[DawgPhan]

hmmm......I would say that you are probably misinformed about some of the finer points of competition bbq, specifically the garnish aspects of KCBS.

Just know that the apperance score is the score of the meat and not the garnish and that if garnish is not your thing then there are many fine blind box/no garnish sanctioning bodies and you may find that they suit you better.

[compound13]

I don't know about misinformed, but i'm certainly non-informed I guess that's what I'm asking! I understand according to the KCBS rules that only certain types of garnish can be used and apparently no garnish is technically required.


I guess my two basic questions are this: 1) is it possible that a judge's taste and tenderness scores could be influenced by their initial appearance score?

and 2) when judging appearance, would 8 pieces of "meat" identical in every way possible, get the same appearance score if one group were thrown in a box sans garnish and another were meticulously placed on a warm and inviting bed of curly parsley?

Again, i'm not asking because i plan on entering any competition - i'm just wondering how appearance is scored and why appearance would be scored before taste if in fact it could influence the taste scores

[allsmokenofire]

If appearance didn't affect taste, you wouldn't see an emphasis placed on plating at any high-end restaurant. The saying goes, you eat with your eyes first. Would you rather your Big Mac look like the one in the picture on the menu board, or look like the one slung in the box, haphazardly, like it normally is? Chances are, both Big Macs would taste the same, but I'd bet you'd enjoy the one that looks like the picture more than the one slung in the box.
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Mike
Team Enoserv

[compound13]

mmmm...big mac. the big mac is kind of like that move in the karate kid "if do right, no can defense". Unfortunately it's almost never done right and never looks like that one up on the board.

but to your point, i agree - I think visual perception does effect taste and experience. that's why it would make it harder on a judge to maintain an impartial opinion when judging the taste aspects of a dish immediately after judging the aesthetic aspects.

Furthermore, taste and texture are supposed to account for a higher percentage of ones score yet both can be influenced by the less significant factor of appearance. IMO this puts a greater emphasis on appearance than initially intended by the original scoring system.

i just thought it was a little weird that a system designed to be as fair as possible (double blind boxes and all that jazz) may not be as fair as it possibly could be - particularly since it would seem relatively easy to add non-eating appearance judges (give these jobs to the ones with the highest BP!)

[DawgPhan]

you would be better off not worrying about it. You dont understand it, you have a preconceived notion of what it means and you are basing in on nothing. I doubt that the appearance score affects the taste and tenderness score as much as you think it does.

But to answer your questions..

1. sure its possible but to a meaningful degree, no.

2. 2 identical boxes are going to score differently on different days and with different judges. Hell you could probably give the same judge the same box 2 days in a row and get 2 different scores.

But again, you have no idea what you are talking about and came, not with questions, but opinions...opinion based on nothing but your speculation about how something works. I would suggest you just move along to some other section of the message board that is more suitable to your current bbq acumen.

[Cory Hess]

The old "If you don't know, don't ask." theory.

compound13, you have stumbled onto one of the great BBQ mysteries. Few have dared ask such questions and lived to tell about it.

I think that what DawgPhan is trying to say is that in his opinion the visuals won't affect the judging of the taste/texture as much as you seem to think it will, and that this possibility is far outweighed by other variables during judgment so as to make it a moot point.

Here's a brain twister, maybe you're right and the visual judging does affect the tasting. Maybe, the people that made the scoring system were aware of this affect. Maybe they wanted to make the visual aspect 50% of the score, but knowing that it would automatically affect the tasting portion they had to give the tasting more weight to balance this out. Maybe I'm full of it, who knows.

DawgPhan, maybe you can be more friendly. If you don't find it possible, maybe you can simply ignore the questions that offend you so and let others answer them. Maybe there are others on this site who have been considering competing because they hear about what a friendly environment surrounds the sport. Maybe they'll read your posts and think "Great, another elitist club. I'll just join another fantasy football league." Either way, this is a section for competition BBQ and I don't think you should be telling people with questions about competition BBQ to stay out of this section.

Maybe I'm going to climb off of my soap box now.
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UDS

"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy."

[DawgPhan]

You are new, so you might not know, but that was friendly. That is as friendly a response as you can possibly give someone who starts in with the "I have no idea what I am talking about, but I sure do have an opinion".

[Cory Hess]

I am new, and I didn't mean to step on toes. Sometimes, when I read what somebody writes I take it the wrong way. Probably what happened here. Seeing as how I'm new I think I deserve a second shot at a reply. Here goes:

compound13, the KCBS has obviously been around for awhile as it's events are highly regarded amongst those in the know. It was most likely put together by people that had a pretty good idea of what they were doing, and the few wrinkles that were in the system have probably been ironed out long ago. That being said, maybe if you attended an event as an observer, even if you don't plan on ever competing, your fears could be put to rest by seeing the process firsthand. Worst case scenario, you mingle with people that you share a past time with and pick up some tips.

How was that?
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UDS

"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy."

[INmitch]

Compound13 hang around & ask all the questions ya want. It's not like there's been too much going on here with tournament season in full swing. Not everyone here will be so negative to your posts. Giggles I appreciate your tact.
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[Jarhead]

KCBS Rules state:

[DawgPhan]

[compound13]

wow - someone had a bad night!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6cxNR9ML8k

Again, please excuse my curiousity - it was not intended to offend. Clearly this is a touchy subject - and i didn't realize the heightened sensitivity of its nature.

Guess I'll just run back to my fantasy football league now! ... where I will not be drafting Matthew Stafford

[DawgPhan]

[compound13]

holy crap - you have to be kidding me.

first off - the fantasy football was a joke b/c a previous poster referenced it first. Stafford is a joke too b/c you're clearly a Georgia football fan. the SGT Houlka reference is clearly not a joke. Seriously dude - lighten up.

the question is a legitimate one - and one that i find to be intriguing to me. A question that i think is open for discussion. I'm not stirring any pot, and if you think i am then it's only because you brought a pot to the conversation. I'm asking a theoretical question - i can't for the life of me understand how that's offensive to you. If you don't want to discuss it, then don't. Leave the thread, never click on it again. I'm totally aware of the fact that you have no interest in discussing the point, so don't.

I'm not criticizing the system, the rules, or BBQ competitions in general. I'm asking for some insight into the system. Sorry if I just wanted to know for the sake of knowing. I didn't think that I had to move down south and enter a competition for the sole purpose of asking a question. (to an earlier poster, i would LOVE to attend some competitions - partly for the sake of eating but also to take in the atmosphere of what I perceive to be a nod towards a different way of life. Unfortunately, doesn't seem to be many in my neck of the woods in the NE, and there always seems to be a family conflict when they do happen by).

Anyways, I get that you are some awesome BBQ star and you probably came out of your mother's womb with all the the BBQ knowledge you ever needed. I get that you probably never asked a single person in your entire life about BBQ and certainly not about the importance of BBQ appearance. I get that you get really offended when someone who doesn't share your vast knowledge of teh BBQ competition has the balls to actually inquire about it.

I don't get why you choose to act the way you do. You make a choice to be offensive at worst and ornary at best. In my opinion your attitude offends the very nature of "BBQ". There's a lot more to life than getting called.

[compound13]

oh, and by the way - do you really think people are trolling BBQ message boards trying to offend you???? get over yourself

[Jarhead]

[NaughtyNurse]

[compound13]

[NaughtyNurse]

Actually, they did try blind-folded judging but it didn't work out. Judges kept getting samples mixed up, writing scores in the wrong place on the card, and one judge even had to go to the hospital to have a rib bone removed from his nose after missing his mouth
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