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Conflict in interest?
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smoke76
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19 10 2:05 am    Post subject: Conflict in interest? Reply with quote

So we sot smoked at Pork in the Park and I knew we didn't turn in a competition winning set of boxes. But here's my issue. The week prior to the competition, KCBS had to certify more judges due to amount of teams entered into the contest.

Chix Swine and Bovine prepared the food for the judges to show them what the food needs to look like and taste like.

Chix Swine and Bovine also walked in every category, won GC and Maryland State Champ.

I know they cook incredible food. You hear about them alot, but it just seams if he judges are eating their food and the instructor is telling then that it is what they need to look for, then the judges see ther food again and it kicks in the memory of the instructor telling them that its the best!!

Here's the link

http://www.wboc.com/global/Category.asp?c=174346&autoStart=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=4708758&flvUri=&partnerclipid=

Please someone tell me I'm wrong!![/url]
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Jeff Hughes
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19 10 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're wrong.

I've cooked for judging classes before, turning out comp winning food for a group of that size is not gonna happen, although what they cooked for the class may have been better than what you turned in.

The class cooks probably were not even using their comp sauces and rubs.

They sure were not using their comp techniques.

I bet they did not inject the brisket or pork, trim or do other special things to the chicken(I'd be very surprised if they turn in legs at a comp), or pull membrane and add their normal ingredients when they wrapped the ribs.

I'm sure they did not do their comp presentation either.
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JimmieOhio
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19 10 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KCBS does double-blind judging. That means one table might see a team's one meat but they CANNOT see any other meat from the same team. This also means that there must be a major conspiracy within several judges to allow a team to cheat to win.

As a judge and sports fan, I can see the ability to cheat in a lot of sports. But following KCBS rules makes it pretty much a given that only the team with the best food is going to win a KCBS-sanctioned comp.

And a lot of teams continue to hate us judges. I think we're kinda nice guys. Wink Just feed us. Very Happy
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smoke76
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19 10 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the judges did a great job, the teams that walked put out some great grub, and that contest was WAAAAYYYY to big for a fix. It just seemed like a conflict of interest to cook for the judges before the contest that they will be competing in. Chix Swine and Bovine is an incredible team, just look at their stats.

It's like at my work, If I'm inspecting a top notch house and they give me a bottle of water and they pass their inspection, then inspect a crappy builder who dosnt give me a bottle water and they have multiple issues,, it just looks bad.

I know the judges pick out the best of the best (or in our case the worst Crying or Very sad) and I have a lot of respect for them. We knew when we built our boxes that we didn't turn in our best. But with only 2 contests under our belt now we have a lot to learn,,, and a lot to eat!!!!!! Very Happy
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Jeff Hughes
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19 10 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

smoke76 wrote:
It just seemed like a conflict of interest to cook for the judges before the contest that they will be competing in.

It's like at my work, If I'm inspecting a top notch house and they give me a bottle of water and they pass their inspection, then inspect a crappy builder who dosnt give me a bottle water and they have multiple issues,, it just looks bad.


It may look bad to you, but it sort of sounds like sour grapes to me.

The got paid something 250 bucks to do that cook. When you look at the hours they put in, they were doing the KCBS a favor. After all, someone had to cook for the class, and I'm sure all the qualified cooks in the area were competing.

Cooking for a judging class and then competing in a 132 team comp with blind judging is nothing like your home inspection business.

You are a one man inspector, you are the only judge of the issues you cite, and you know the builders and their reputations.

There were over 100 judges at that comp, and none of them knew whos box they were judging. I don't know if you understood me or not, but what was prepared for the class shared little if any similarities to what the cooks turned in at the contest. The meats, rubs, and sauces were provided, the boxes were all lettuce. The boxes were built by many, not just the cooks.

If it really looks that bad to you, maybe you need to find a different hobby.
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EastTennQcrew
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19 10 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I took the class, and then helped fix ribs for one. I agree that there is no way the boxes were enough to sway the new judges.

There are too many boxes and to many people involved in putting them together. The guidlines tell the kitchen staff how to prep the boxes so it ties in with the discussion in the class.



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Merl
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19 10 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All Qued Up,

I do not like to see anyone beat up or abused on this forum. (and would ask members not to do this to you.) But this time you are incorrect.

I have taught at least 50 CBJ classes. The food, the box design, the flavors are not close to what a team turns in.

Even, if the cook was not given specific instructions on how to cook and prepare the boxes, could you cook the same for 50-70 people as for a table of 6.

I am sorry you were not successful at the contest. But your assumptions are clearly without merit.

Good luck in the future. I would suggest you attend a CBJ class and see how the judges are taught to judge. I think you might find this beneficial.

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INmitch
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19 10 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff is dead on. If you would take a judging class you would realize what he's trying to tell you. The judging class I took last winter showed us boxes with things wrong with them. Such as pooling, pieces that weren't seperated & such to see if you were paying attention in class and knew what to look for. Nothing close to what would be turned in at a comp. I think your barking up the wrong tree.
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Tombigbeeriverdawg
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19 10 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a CBJ and also cook comp.
I suggest to everyone who cooks in comp. to at least get certified as a judge and judge one time.
I really found out that no matter how good you think you are there is alot you don't know until you judge a comp.
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Jeff Hughes
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19 10 11:07 am    Post subject: Re: Conflict in interest? Reply with quote

smoke76 wrote:


Please someone tell me I'm wrong!![/url]


Sorry if I came off as harsh...
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smoke76
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19 10 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff Hughes wrote:


It may look bad to you, but it sort of sounds like sour grapes to me.


If it really looks that bad to you, maybe you need to find a different hobby.


Jeff Hughes

I'm not "sour" about a great team winning a big contest, nor am I insinuating that there was some impropriety on their part. If you read my entire posts you will see that I know we were nowhere near 1st place. We placed 110th over all and I'm fine with that, hell, I knew we were smoked with the first box going out. We had a bad comp. Everyone does.

I was just asking a question, not looking for a spanking Shocked And wanted to know if there was a conflict in interest, as the subject line states. I plan on taking a CBJ class this year to get a better insight on what you guys are looking for, cause, we were WAAAAAAY off this time Laughing

I met a lot of great people and had a great time, thats why I enjoy this hobby. So Jeff, you can't scare me off that easy Wink Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

This site has provided me with alot of info and I am glad that I was wrong Embarassed Embarassed But then again I'm used to being wrong,, I'm married!!! Laughing Laughing Laughing
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Jeff Hughes
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19 10 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read both of your posts very carefully. You asked for some one to tell you you were wrong and I told you. While you admitted your food was not good, you kept dwelling on how the GC cooking for the class "looked bad".

You appeared to ignore my explanation of why your impressions were incorrect.

Like everyone else said, take the class, and better luck next time...
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crash55r
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19 10 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I persosonally dont see any conflict of interest.

The one time that I assisted in cooking for a KCBS CBJ class was brutal. There is so much work involved to make X amount of boxes (four times) for a judging class. It is 100% different than what a competition team would turn in to be judged in a real live comp.

As I recall, the cooking team for the CBJ class is instructed to turn in some boxes with obvious flaws.... I.E. wrong garnish, pooling sauce, ribs/brisket not properly sliced through, etc.

In my opinion, there is not a flavor profile/sauce/rub/tenderness/taste/etc that would have made the CBJ cooking team stand out when they actually turned in food as competitors.

Just one dude's opinion though.
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Kteedid63
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19 10 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think what he was getting at if they told the new judges this is what BBQ should taste like... But I dont think people would be able to pick it out unless its really unique. Smoke 76 when you cook up against big teams its harder to get a call. But when you do the smile is hard to get off your face. I do understand your point but people have to learn how to look at a box and judge meat some how. Just keep asking questions and keep doing comps. And most of all start expecting calls.
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SoEzzy
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19 10 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've heard of several classes where the food was not up to the task, and the instructors had to turn the class on it's head and tell people, "This is what competition BBQ should NOT taste like!"

So if you have good cooks doing the cooking for a judging class, and then doing well in a contest two days later, does that make it possible for new judges to theoretically pick out that flavor at the judging table... the answer is probably yes, do I think most judges palates are capable of such a level of discrimination when they are starting out... No I don't!

If there were 100 judges certified, I personally doubt that 5% would be able to remember the perfect BBQ from their class.

The other side of the coin, and one I feel is the bigger disadvantage to teams, is that brisket is not part of the class structure.

Out here in Utah, there are some good judges, some not so good judges, etc, but the one meat that a lot of the judges don't cook at home is the brisket, often people will slow cook brisket in a crock pot, mmmm pot roast, lovely in it's own right if you want to cook pot roast, but not very good IMO if you want the beefy brisket flavor.

So if you come and compete out in the wild's and you don't cook pot roast brisket, you may want to cook your brisket in a roasting bag with carrots and onion, perhaps a few potatoes and some gravy! Crying or Very sad Embarassed Sad
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Jeff Hughes
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19 10 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's interesting, we cook brisket as part of the judging classes here...
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smoke76
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20 10 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoEzzy wrote:

So if you come and compete out in the wild's and you don't cook pot roast brisket, you may want to cook your brisket in a roasting bag with carrots and onion, perhaps a few potatoes and some gravy! Crying or Very sad Embarassed Sad


We probably would have done better if we did it that way Laughing

I appriciate all the comments and am sorry if I came off sour or offensive in any way. Once again we had a blast, and thats all that really matters to us in the end!!
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SoEzzy
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20 10 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff Hughes wrote:
That's interesting, we cook brisket as part of the judging classes here...


Chicken and ribs... chicken and ribs.

I took the class, C&R, I table captained a class, C&R, I helped table captain another class, C&R.
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ralph weller
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20 10 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just judged my 19th contest Saturday. To be very honest I can't tell who turns in what and I have a couple of good friends that cook at a lot of the contest I judge.
About the only thing I can tell is a team that has done many boxes versus a fairly new team. I sure can't tell which team it is though.
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Jeff Hughes
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20 10 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoEzzy wrote:

Chicken and ribs... chicken and ribs.

I took the class, C&R, I table captained a class, C&R, I helped table captain another class, C&R.


I wonder how that shortcut got started, I wonder if the KCBS knows...
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