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power draft controller(pic heavy w/ parts list) updated 4-11
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JimmieOhio
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20 10 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Soybomb wrote:
Not to be difficult, but how come? Isn't a thermocouple that can report temp changes to the controller more quickly going to allow that controller to react to them with greater accuracy?

The cook chamber is not going to change temp that fast. Certainly not like sticking a temp probe that is in 70 degree air into a pork shoulder that is already about 170 degrees or more. For that, you DO want a quick read.
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ryan cassidy
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20 10 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two questions...

A.) Can you shorten the length of the K-Type Thermocouple? So basically, cut the end of and connect that cut end directly to the PID. Not sodering anything in between, just shortening one end of it.

B.) How would you mount this? Would you screw it into the smoker wall from the backside so the tip is in the smoker? or is it best to "hang" it in the smoker somewhere?

Thanks in advance!

Ryan
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killswitch505
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21 10 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ryan cassidy wrote:
Two questions...

A.) Can you shorten the length of the K-Type Thermocouple? So basically, cut the end of and connect that cut end directly to the PID. Not sodering anything in between, just shortening one end of it.

B.) How would you mount this? Would you screw it into the smoker wall from the backside so the tip is in the smoker? or is it best to "hang" it in the smoker somewhere?

Thanks in advance!

Ryan


A) sure man that wont hurt a thing the shorter the better and no need to solder anything it will perform better with out the solders a just added the jack so if it was not pit mounted it would be easy to store and clean

B) I would mount it in the cooking area at grill level that way you know you are cooking at the same temp the PID is reading you could also add a couple analog thermometers on the grill for reference and adjust the PID up or down as needed to get the temp you need to cook at

Jimmie Do you think this was good advice please add to this as I知 sure I forgot some very important useless info lol
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ryan cassidy
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21 10 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool. Not sodering anything, but since the PID and the thermo will be permanently mounted, no need to have an extra 7 ft of wire hanging around.

Will do on the temp. I think I'll make a little tab that will attach to the bottom of one of my grate rails (the stationary ones) and which I can clip the thermocouple onto to measure the temp. I didn't think it was wise mounting it to the skin of the smoker Smile, Just wanted to make sure.
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killswitch505
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21 10 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ryan cassidy wrote:
. I think I'll make a little tab that will attach to the bottom of one of my grate rails (the stationary ones) and which I can clip the thermocouple onto to measure the temp. I didn't think it was wise mounting it to the skin of the smoker Smile, Just wanted to make sure.

Sorry man you could use a different probe the one I used for this build was cheap and universal on my new pit I知 building I知 not going to use TC(s) at all im going to use 10" RTD(s) with weld-in thermal wells but if you want to use RTD(s) that痴 a whole other beast there are a million different options ( Million = 1,000,000 lol)
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JimmieOhio
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21 10 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

killswitch505 wrote:
Jimmie Do you think this was good advice please add to this as I知 sure I forgot some very important useless info lol

I'm done here. Have a nice day! Very Happy
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killswitch505
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21 10 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I知 really sorry guys I知 not at all trying to be overly sensitive all I was trying to do make a cool post that was very doable by the average ringer. With my back ground I could very easily over complicate this thing.
But why?

JimmieOhio wrote:

I'm not sure the controller KillSwitch listed earlier is a PID controller. I could not find the data sheet to figure that out. I did read the manual of the Auber controller, and that does have PID. Dude I posted a link I have personally witnessed you blow a gasket for asking a dumb question

My million dollar question is what you do with a pulsed output from a SSR (solid state relay)? Do you pulse a 120VAC fan to vary speed? Not the best idea. PID typically is used to pulse a heater (resistive load) to maintain temperature. Jimmie I think it will work just fine in fact I know it will and so do stoker and guru this is not a 110 fan please read the post

A better way is this: I am testing a blower control using PWM (pulse width modulation) to control a 24VDC fan which has a separate control input. So far it works great. I'm planning on ultimately controlling speed with a programmable controller that has thermocouple inputs. I will program the PID in the PLC to send a varying control input to the fan from an analog output of the PLC. Ok ok did anyone other then a myself and maybe a couple other even remotely understand what the hell he said

Another method of temp control would be to have the fan feed a pipe with a "Y", one leg goes into the firebox, one leg vents to the outside. In each leg of the Y, control the output with a solenoid, one normally open and one normally closed. They switch in unison based on demand for higher temps. Dude F N really man who would ever really do this I cant wait to see your build

What would happen is this: Run the fan all the time. If the firebox needs more air, energize (open) the solenoid that leads into the firebox, while closing the solenoid that sends the blower air to the outside. When up to temp, de-energize (close) the solenoid leading to the firebox and open the one that vents to the outside. Dude F N really man who would ever really do this I cant wait to see your build

Voile! Use the on-off output relay of the temp controller to run the solenoids. Solenoids are designed for much greater cycles and the fan never gets "dead-headed" by blowing air without an outlet for it. And, since you leave the fan running all the time, you can use a pretty big fan.
This statement is very true but I cant see how the fan would "dead head" I learned here on the ring not to smoke with the exhaust closed

The thing that got me thinking was this reference everyone makes about a PID controller. This application is NOT a really a PID application.
Really I am pulsing the fan please read your own posts Jimmie

The short and simple answer is that for fan control, a PID-capable controller really only works in "on-off" mode because pulsing the fan cannot happen too frequently or you will burn it up. And PID-capable controllers are no more expensive than controllers designed for on-off mode only. Jimmie I think it will work just fine in fact I know it will so does stoker and guru again jimmie read your own posts

At the end of the day, you are simply making a thermostat for your firebox. Temperature input and fan output based on the temperature feedback. yep that was the idea dude


I sent a few PMs asking if I could build this for under 100 bucks would ppl be interested in building one for their pits. All I got were yes(s) that痴 why I did this post. I知 not trying to sell them Jimmie. But for the record Jimmie will this controller work? And please give us ringers a sneak peek of your build. You said you were in testing stages just do it on your own post. Hell do it here I really want to see this thing.
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MarkBall2
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21 10 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you understand the electronics, then just build it. I for one could care less about any "bickering" from others, I want to learn how to do this for my Vertical Cabinet.

To quote Nike: "Just Do It".
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killswitch505
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21 10 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkBall2 wrote:
If you understand the electronics, then just build it. I for one could care less about any "bickering" from others, I want to learn how to do this for my Vertical Cabinet.

To quote Nike: "Just Do It".


lol sorry man no more bickering as of now i'm not working this weekend so i will do my best to get her done
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SMARTGUY



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22 10 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PID Poormans Intake Drafter Cool . yes guys this is a simple controller. its not however a simple on-off thermostat. the computer has a preset algorithm that turns the fan on and off to stoke the fire, as it reaches the preset temp it starts to pulse the fan a few seconds at a time depending on how fast or slow your cooker temp rise is. unless your trying to smoke in a kmart bbq grill your smoker should hold temp for more than a few minutes at least, which is wayyyyyy more time (seconds) than the cheap and easy to replace temp probe will ever need for the pid to adjust the program. if u feel the fan is too large then use a smaller one or you could use an inline T (not a Y. where would you get one?) and a ballvalve to dump the extra air, just open the ballvalve a little and let the computer take over. yes this may not be the perfect pidc for every cooker but with one or more fans it should take care of most, and besides you can tell everyone that u made it. you did make the smoker its connected to didnt you?
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killswitch505
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22 10 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SMARTGUY wrote:
PID Poormans Intake Drafter Cool . yes guys this is a simple controller. its not however a simple on-off thermostat. the computer has a preset algorithm that turns the fan on and off to stoke the fire, as it reaches the preset temp it starts to pulse the fan a few seconds at a time depending on how fast or slow your cooker temp rise is. unless your trying to smoke in a kmart bbq grill your smoker should hold temp for more than a few minutes at least, which is wayyyyyy more time (seconds) than the cheap and easy to replace temp probe will ever need for the pid to adjust the program. if u feel the fan is too large then use a smaller one or you could use an inline T (not a Y. where would you get one?) and a ballvalve to dump the extra air, just open the ballvalve a little and let the computer take over. yes this may not be the perfect pidc for every cooker but with one or more fans it should take care of most, and besides you can tell everyone that u made it. you did make the smoker its connected to didnt you?


thanks man lol you said "algorithm"
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MarkBall2
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22 10 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I'm thinking of adding a temp controller/draft system to my Vertical Cabinet build. I figure I can ask questions here before I get it totally built.

Anyway, I found a 12V PID controller, but wondered if I were to use this, how would it monitor the food temp?

Here's a link to the one I found: http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=83

I also was thinking of mounting this in a small cabinet along side the cook cabinet complete with food probes that all I have to do is unplug the probe from the inside of the cook chamber. Is that a bad idea?

Maybe I'm way off base here too, but if I do build it in, everything would already be mounted, so once fired up, I slide the food in, plug in the temp probes (one per rack, 5 racks) then let it chug away.

Comments?
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Soybomb
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22 10 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkBall2 wrote:
Ok, I'm thinking of adding a temp controller/draft system to my Vertical Cabinet build. I figure I can ask questions here before I get it totally built.

Anyway, I found a 12V PID controller, but wondered if I were to use this, how would it monitor the food temp?

Here's a link to the one I found: http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=83

I also was thinking of mounting this in a small cabinet along side the cook cabinet complete with food probes that all I have to do is unplug the probe from the inside of the cook chamber. Is that a bad idea?

Maybe I'm way off base here too, but if I do build it in, everything would already be mounted, so once fired up, I slide the food in, plug in the temp probes (one per rack, 5 racks) then let it chug away.

Comments?

There is no need for the unit to monitor food temp, we're using them to control pit temperatures. This is about keeping the pit at 250 or whatever, checking to see when your butt is at 200 internal temp is still up to you.

That is the pid I'm using for my build though, I'm going to try to post an update with it in my thread later this afternoon. May not have a chance to actually fire up the cooker for a while though, lots of wet weather headed my way. Speaking of, are you doing anything to try to weatherproof yours killswitch? I'm going to try not to use mine in the rain but I know that eventually..... I'm thinking just put the jbox in a trashbag on the wet days and maybe try to tent some foil over the fan.
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killswitch505
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22 10 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The controller I built does not monitor food temps you could use 2 PID controllers one to mind the pit and one to monitor the food or the better option would to be buy a PID with multiple inputs or you could buy just a TC display if all you want is to see what temp your food is I have seen displays with alarm relays build in that way you could set a desired temp and when it reached that temp you would get an alarm but a multiple PID would probably be your best option but that would require quite a bit of set up (programming)
If you bought a PID capable you could set it up when the food hits temp it would revert to a holding temp (say 140) thats the idea i'm kicking around
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MarkBall2
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23 10 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the PID to control the temp is a good idea, but monitoring temps I'm a bit confused on which monitor to get.

I also would like to have a plug inside the cook chamber where the food probes could be plugged in, one for each rack, then have the rest of the wires buried between the cook chamber & the temp control cabinet. Bad idea?

I'm thinking that the jacks to plug the probe into would fill with grease & not work after a few smokes. Unless I just put a "dummy" plug in the jack if I'm not cooking a full 5 racks of food. Maybe it would be better to just have run the wires to the temp controller in a tube to the cabinet. The tube would have to be large enough to allow the plug to pass.

Your ideas?
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killswitch505
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23 10 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you could get something like this but then you would need one for every rack or get one with multi inputs

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/2HMH8?cm_mmc=Google%20Base-_-Test%20Instruments-_-Temperature%20and%20Humidity%20Measuring-_-2HMH8

i dont really like the chase way idea unless you sealed it off some how you would not want heat to transfer into the control box if you really want to monitor your food temps and not have it loop into your pid i would just go with a couple of these and save your self some money

http://www.partshelf.com/maet73.html
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MarkBall2
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23 10 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't really like the idea of a "chaseway" either. I suppose I could make a panel on the outside of the smoker to get at the ports & then use regular food probes that plug into it. Connect the ports to thermometers via wires inside the walls of the cabinet.

I don't mind the idea of different thermometers for different racks, but could probably find something that allows for multiple inputs, so one temp gauge for multiple racks. Then have a PID to control the cook chamber temp.

Maybe I'm making this more complicated than I need to?
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killswitch505
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23 10 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkBall2 wrote:
Maybe I'm making this more complicated than I need to?


no way man i think if you dont do it the way you want to you will wish you had if i get some time today i will look a little harder and see what i can find
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ryan cassidy
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25 10 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any thoughts on two 17.3 CFM Fans? I bought two of them (they just arrived yesterday) so I could use one for each side of the smoker (I have two main intake vents for my vertical smoker). Figured they would go on and off at the same time.

I thought that two smaller fans instead of one big one might help stabilize temp swings etc? Thoughts?

They look so small compared to the one that Killswitch used. These are 60mm or about 2 3/8 of an inch in diameter.

Ryan
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killswitch505
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25 10 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

man i think that would work great thats how i would do it if it were my pit
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