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power draft controller(pic heavy w/ parts list) updated 4-11
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MarkBall2
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17 10 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Either way works for me. I'm not an engineer, but am very mechanically inclined and can read a wiring diagram.

That said, maybe one is to be kept simple, the other be more "robust" and technical. That way both crowds/skill levels can choose which direction they want to go.

Either way, I'm learning from this thread.
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JimmieOhio
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17 10 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KillSwitch, I apologize for going off on a high tech tangent and complicating things.

The thing that got me thinking was this reference everyone makes about a PID controller. This application is NOT a really a PID application.

The short and simple answer is that for fan control, a PID-capable controller really only works in "on-off" mode because pulsing the fan cannot happen too frequently or you will burn it up. And PID-capable controllers are no more expensive than controllers designed for on-off mode only.

At the end of the day, you are simply making a thermostat for your firebox. Temperature input and fan output based on the temperature feedback.

What did you think about my solenoid toggling idea with the fan on continuously?
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Soybomb
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17 10 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Killswitch, holler if you want us to start a new thread but it seems like this is general controller discussion right now.

I could use some thermocouple advice from you more experienced guys. I have a wsm and hate snaking cords through it for thermometers. I'm thinking about getting a 12" long probe and putting some eyelets in the cooker. Then when its time to cook, just stick the probe in through the eyelet and let it hang out. Seems easy. My only concern is will the extra hot temps coming up the side of the bullet radiate down the length of my probe and skew the temp and not give a true tip reading?
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killswitch505
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17 10 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JimmieOhio wrote:

What did you think about my solenoid toggling idea with the fan on continuously?


I actually like the pulse because it helps with over shoot on the temps Shawn the (guy I built the first one for) turned that feature off and found that it would over shoot like 10-15 degrees and it only pulses when it comes with in 10 degrees of the set point I know that its not a sever duty motor but Iím more then confident the fan and the pid will be able to handle this. The fan you specified in your post is the same fan used on the guru well 12vdc not 24vdc (the same as I planned on using on my newest build Iíve already bought 3 of them) and it pulses I might need to shoot them an email letting them know that it wont work or thatís how its not indented to work actually Jimmie will you please do that for me Iím a little busy this week
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killswitch505
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18 10 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Soybomb wrote:
Killswitch, holler if you want us to start a new thread but it seems like this is general controller discussion right now.

no way man I love it I think its what the ring is all about as long as it stays remotely on the subject and no one starts bad mouthing the Chargers lol
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killswitch505
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18 10 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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killswitch505
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18 10 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jimmie I found a few things to help with your build I think I read that you were going to use a couple deep cycle batteries all of this is 12 VDC

You could use these for your stack(s )
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Electric-Exhaust-Cut-Outs,4613.html

they are 12 vdc I doubt the plc out put will handle the load so you might need a few of these
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Remote-Starter-Solenoid,2365.html

You could use these to open the doors Iím not sure of the application so here are a couple of options

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Deluxe-Shaved-Door-Handle-Remote-Entry-Kit,7417.html

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Electric-Trunk-Lift-Kit,6756.html

Here is a wiring harness that would probably work with some modifications ether way you could fuse each device (safety first)
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Painless-1967-1968-Camaro-Firebird-Wiring-Harnesses,5834.html

But for some reason I have you pegged as a Ford guy
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/1964-1966-Mustang-Wiring-Harness,8447.html

You could use this for the auto fuel feed
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Weiand-396-502-Big-Block-Chevy-6-71-Blower-Kit,7764.html

I also found a high output fan as well 2800 CFM
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Electric-Cooling-Fan,1807.html

And I believe you can vary the fan speed with this
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Spal-Pulse-Width-Modulated-Fan-Controller,35700.html


I donít know about the rest of you guys but I cant look a single magazine without turning everything in to a BBQ pit
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animal
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18 10 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What value of resistor do you use with the k Thermocouple
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killswitch505
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18 10 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

animal wrote:
What value of resistor do you use with the k Thermocouple


sorry man I donít really understand the question and im not sure where or why you would want to insert a resister in a thermoelectric circuit. When you take 2 wires that are dissimilar and join them if you and heat this union a voltage is produced that voltage is measured and that is where you get your temp from I cant see where you would want a resistor in this part of the circuit. Now if you asking what kind of resistor the controller may have built into it I have no idea I would need to see a diagram of the PCB most companies consider this proprietary and wont give out this info but I can think of some here that probably knows (please help this guy Jimmie lol)
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k.a.m.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18 10 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

killswitch505, I have read through your thread and have to say Kudos my Man. Very Happy I am not really into the electronics end of the cookers but for those that are you have created a valuable tool. Nicely done my man. Very Happy
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animal
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18 10 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

killswitch505 wrote:
animal wrote:
What value of resistor do you use with the k Thermocouple


sorry man I donít really understand the question and im not sure where or why you would want to insert a resister in a thermoelectric circuit. When you take 2 wires that are dissimilar and join them if you and heat this union a voltage is produced that voltage is measured and that is where you get your temp from I cant see where you would want a resistor in this part of the circuit. Now if you asking what kind of resistor the controller may have built into it I have no idea I would need to see a diagram of the PCB most companies consider this proprietary and wont give out this info but I can think of some here that probably knows (please help this guy Jimmie lol)


Sorry, I got the damn thing with no documentation They sent me a different model than I ordered, surprise surprise. I hooked up the thermocouple and got an error message, saw the jumper spot on the back for a resistor to - Thermocouple connection. Tried different value resistors and got a reading. Then found a pot with that approximate range and dialed her in. This morning I found the manual and printed it off, was able to enter the programming mode and found I don't need the resistor once I enter the type of thermocouple I am using.
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animal
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18 10 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Time to start the ribs and ABT's, looks like I am still using the Lang the old fashioned way until next time
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JimmieOhio
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18 10 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

killswitch505 wrote:
animal wrote:
What value of resistor do you use with the k Thermocouple


sorry man I donít really understand the question and im not sure where or why you would want to insert a resister in a thermoelectric circuit. When you take 2 wires that are dissimilar and join them if you and heat this union a voltage is produced that voltage is measured and that is where you get your temp from I cant see where you would want a resistor in this part of the circuit. Now if you asking what kind of resistor the controller may have built into it I have no idea I would need to see a diagram of the PCB most companies consider this proprietary and wont give out this info but I can think of some here that probably knows (please help this guy Jimmie lol)

Not only is it a voltage, it is millivolts (that's thousandths of a volt = 0.001). Thermocouples are used directly, no need for a resistor of any kind.

And KillSwitch, thanks for the links. The one I really like is the trunk lifter. You could adapt that to a cooker door easily. Wiring I'm pretty good at since my parents ran a control panel company years ago. That's where I learned a lot, even compared to four years of college.
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killswitch505
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18 10 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Not only is it a voltage, it is millivolts (that's thousandths of a volt = 0.001). Thermocouples are used directly, no need for a resistor of any kind.
thanks Jimmie i knew you could add to my reply Very Happy

P.S. jimmy do you think animal might have crossed the tc wires I know if you land them backwards they will read reverse or the controller might even see it as an error and most controller fail high (or fail open) animal
send me or jimmie a part # it might not be a type k PID[/quote]
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JimmieOhio
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19 10 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

killswitch505 wrote:
P.S. jimmy do you think animal might have crossed the tc wires I know if you land them backwards they will read reverse or the controller might even see it as an error and most controller fail high (or fail open) animal
send me or jimmie a part # it might not be a type k PID

Each type of thermocouple has its own color code. Polarity is absolutely important.

Type K is chromel (+) / alumel (-) with positive being yellow and negative being red.

Type J is another type of commonly used thermocouple and is easy to tell which is which, even blindfolded since it is iron (+) / constantan (-). Iron is magnetic, so with any simple magnet, you can tell which conductor is which.
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Soybomb
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19 10 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of temperature sensing devices, do you guys know if you can get away with extending the wires on a thermistor? As I'm planning my pid control box I can't help but get the urge to integrate my maverick et-73 sender unit in it too. I have no idea what kind of resistance range a thermistor falls into though and if the wire extensions might introduce too much error into it.

So what kind of temp bounce do you normally see killswitch? As I'm reading other stuff it seems like some people feel the big bolt thermocouple might be slow to respond to temp shifts and cause temp flux. I'm wondering if its worth the extra bucks to get a thinner one or if cheap really works fine.
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JimmieOhio
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19 10 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Soybomb wrote:
So what kind of temp bounce do you normally see killswitch? As I'm reading other stuff it seems like some people feel the big bolt thermocouple might be slow to respond to temp shifts and cause temp flux. I'm wondering if its worth the extra bucks to get a thinner one or if cheap really works fine.

I'm using type K thermocouple for two reasons:

1) The ones I got are industrial grade. Many can be ordered with armored sheathes that will protect them from pinches. They will also hold up to the elements, unlike the cheaper temp probes. Accuracy is within a degree and you always know the tip is the sensing point.

2) ThermoWorks makes Thermopens using a type K thermocouple. That's good enough for me.

Although the caveat of using a thermocouple may be the fact that you can't extend it using lamp cord from Wal-Mart and thermocouple extension wire runs about $1 per foot, you can always order them either with longer leads or locate your control box within six feet of the probe. My thermocouples from ThermoWorks were 78" long standard.
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Soybomb
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19 10 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JimmieOhio wrote:
Soybomb wrote:
So what kind of temp bounce do you normally see killswitch? As I'm reading other stuff it seems like some people feel the big bolt thermocouple might be slow to respond to temp shifts and cause temp flux. I'm wondering if its worth the extra bucks to get a thinner one or if cheap really works fine.

I'm using type K thermocouple for two reasons:

1) The ones I got are industrial grade. Many can be ordered with armored sheathes that will protect them from pinches. They will also hold up to the elements, unlike the cheaper temp probes. Accuracy is within a degree and you always know the tip is the sensing point.

2) ThermoWorks makes Thermopens using a type K thermocouple. That's good enough for me.

Although the caveat of using a thermocouple may be the fact that you can't extend it using lamp cord from Wal-Mart and thermocouple extension wire runs about $1 per foot, you can always order them either with longer leads or locate your control box within six feet of the probe. My thermocouples from ThermoWorks were 78" long standard.

The impression I got was that people weren't really doubting the accuracy of a thermocouple, as much as how the packaging of the thermocouple effects its time to read. Case in point, the thermapen. The tip is very very fine and the thermocouple is likely grounded so it reads very very quickly. With the large bolt ended thermocouples that generally constitute the cheapies, who knows how much thicker the metal is and if the thermocouple is grounded or not. After 15 seconds they might register the same temperature as a thinner probe, but if the thinner/grounded enclosure registered it after 1 second it could have signaled its controller to quit stoking the fire that much earlier. The end result, at least for them, was that a big/thick bolt like thermocouple like this http://www.lightobject.com/16ft-5M-K-type-Thermocouple-P406.aspx might make your pid overshoot by reading slower than a thinner probe. But those were mostly electric smokers. I figured I'd see what our own killswitch has seen in practice.
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JimmieOhio
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20 10 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Soybomb,

Don't confuse a thermocouple in a cooker that is reading constantly with an INSTANT read thermometer.

This thread is dealing with an ongoing monitoring process, so any kind of tip, thick or thin, to read continuous temps is not the same as the need to plunge a probe into meat and have the temp settle out in a matter of seconds.

Apples and oranges.
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Soybomb
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20 10 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to be difficult, but how come? Isn't a thermocouple that can report temp changes to the controller more quickly going to allow that controller to react to them with greater accuracy? If the air temp is 265 by the time the thermocouple sends 255 it seems like you could create a very circular chasing problem.

I'd liken it to being on the caboose of a train and calling for the conductor to stop. If I can radio the message to him we'll get the train stopped a lot quicker than if we have to relay the message through every car in the train.
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