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power draft controller(pic heavy w/ parts list) updated 4-11
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killswitch505
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12 10 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok guys hears a link to some ľĒ solder less mono jacks I could not find any 1/8Ē
http://www.action-electronics.com/audioconnectors.htm

The reason I mounted the fan in a 4Ē and 11/16 box is because of its versatility, you can use readily accessible parts to connect it to your cooker here are a few options. (sorry will add the pics soon)



Here is the link to the PDF file for the PID controller manual super easy to follow. This PID comes set up exactly how you want to use it. Other than the default setting of 150 you will need to change that to whatever temp you like to cook at. (well I say that give it some time and I bet someone will chime in to let you guys know its all wrong lol)
http://www.lightobject.info/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5

The only part of this that you may need to use is the offset feature when changing the temperature. If the temp probe is off of calibration the best way that I know to check for calibration is a water bath. Fill a Styrofoam cup with crushed ice and water (but just a little water and see what you temp is should be (around 32) then boil some water and see what your temp is should be (around 212) depending on you altitude you should check that out I donít know how lol but Iím sure someone here will I would say if your 3-5 degrees off you will be fine FOR THIS APPLICATION if I do some thing like this at work we like to see it on the Natís A$$ if anyone has any problems with this let me know and I will help I have not had a problem with ether of the controllers I built. The first one I built has been in service for over a month now with no problems or offset correction needed. But if its over 5 degrees you would want to put a -5 correction and if its under 5 degrees you would want to make a +5 correction.
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MarkBall2
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12 10 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm watching this in case I decide to make one for my new vertical cabinet.
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ryan cassidy
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12 10 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the instructions and the update. I did some searching (half hearted really) and wasn't able to find them so it's very valuable.

A couple quick questions......

A.) On the PID, If I set the desired temp to be 225 for example, when will the fan turn on. Or when does the Alarm relay open to turn the fan on? Is it 1 degree, 5 degrees or is it adjustable? I believe the Integration Time, Derivative Time and Proportional Cycle control these, but I'm not 100%

B.) On the MeanWell Power Box, there is an adjustment screw. I assume leave this alone? When might anyone want to adjust this screw?

C.) If you were wiring more than one fan, would you run 2/3/4 wires to the PID (hot) and Meanwell (Negative) or run one wire to each and then split the wires to each fan jack? Curious as what is really a best practice. I doubt it makes a functional difference, just curious.

Ryan
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ryan cassidy
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12 10 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark - FYI, I'm making one now for my vertical cabinet. Unfortunately I planned to integrate this after I started the majority of the cabinet build, but I can send you some pictures of my final product when its done if that helps.

I'm planning the following..

A.) Everything exactly as described in this thread.... But...
B.) Adding a 110v outlet. Since I'm wiring it, might as well add the ability to have a light or whatever. The plug should be handy
C.) Adding a total of 2 fans, Might be a total of 4 if I feel like really making it overkill.
D.) Running the coupler directly to the PID as opposed to using the Headphone jack. Mine will be permanently mounted so It doesn't need to be removable.

The only thing I haven't sourced yet is the 4x4x6 box. I should be getting that this week and then depending if I finish the rest of the ToDo's on the build I'll get to this and start on it.

Ryan
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animal
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15 10 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well now it starts for me, I bought a TET 612 pid controller off of E bay from Cold Fusion (Coincidence) also, last night. With E bay bucks (a credit) with shipping it was $17.00, I have the fans, but looking for the best way to hook it up to a Lang
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Soybomb
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15 10 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any reason for such a large power supply? I'm sure i've got several 12v wall adapters in my junk box from old electronics that would be happy to be cannibalized. It looks like most of the fans that are sized for home pits would draw well under an amp.

edit: I read you mentioned using a 12v pid. I searched for some and found this http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=83&zenid=e2cebd5af88910c8e4b812c630e83629 and this http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=128&zenid=e2cebd5af88910c8e4b812c630e83629 With this I could have a dual power system that I could run off a 12v wall wart of 1-1.5 amps, hook up to a deep cycle for competitions.....
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killswitch505
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15 10 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Soybomb wrote:
Any reason for such a large power supply? I'm sure i've got several 12v wall adapters in my junk box from old electronics that would be happy to be cannibalized. It looks like most of the fans that are sized for home pits would draw well under an amp.

very true man the power supply is overkill but it was only 20 bucks and a cheap one new rated of 800ma at 12 volts was like 14 bucks (locally) for six bucks more I would buy a lager one. I thought I had a lot of scrap power supplies laying around the house too but when I got to really looking at them I found that most of them were only 6 volt. if you got one use it save your self some money. My only concern would be that make sure that the powwer supply is rated for the fan used
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mcusc



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16 10 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Couldn't you avoid the power supply all together by using a 120 Vac fan? Something like this.

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=16-1021&catname=electric

I know you wouldn't want to use the connectors, but you cut the end of a drop cord and wire it to the controller.
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ryan cassidy
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16 10 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah you probably could. I'd bet that blower is better than any computer fan as it is rated for back pressure. It's a good find and something that I think others would use.
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JimmieOhio
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17 10 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Soybomb wrote:
I read you mentioned using a 12v pid. I searched for some and found this http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=83&zenid=e2cebd5af88910c8e4b812c630e83629 and this http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=128&zenid=e2cebd5af88910c8e4b812c630e83629 With this I could have a dual power system that I could run off a 12v wall wart of 1-1.5 amps, hook up to a deep cycle for competitions.....

I'm not sure the controller KillSwitch listed earlier is a PID controller. I could not find the data sheet to figure that out. I did read the manual of the Auber controller, and that does have PID.

My million dollar question is
what you do with a pulsed output from a SSR (solid state relay)? Do you pulse a 120VAC fan to vary speed? Not the best idea. PID typically is used to pulse a heater (resistive load) to maintain temperature.

A better way is this: I am testing a blower control using PWM (pulse width modulation) to control a 24VDC fan which has a separate control input. So far it works great. I'm planning on ultimately controlling speed with a programmable controller that has thermocouple inputs. I will program the PID in the PLC to send a varying control input to the fan from an analog output of the PLC.

Here's the fan:

http://www.sanyodenki.co.jp/data/pdf_catalog/SAN_ACE/San_Ace_B97_E.pdf

Here's the speed controller:

http://www.electronickits.com/kit/complete/motor/ck1400.pdf

Here's my thermocouple. I'm using the Crocodile Clip Oven Probe part # THS-113-041 for testing:

http://www.thermoworks.com/products/probe/tc_wire.html

My analog output signal to control the fan will be hacked into the speed controller board to replace the speed pot with a voltage reference.

I plan to run everything from 24VDC (two deep cycle batteries). That way, no inverter, no unsafe higher voltages. And I can get 12VDC for some of the electronics from between the series connection of the batteries.

Don't even ask me what I have invested so far. Crying or Very sad
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Soybomb
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17 10 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JimmieOhio wrote:
Soybomb wrote:
I read you mentioned using a 12v pid. I searched for some and found this http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=83&zenid=e2cebd5af88910c8e4b812c630e83629 and this http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=128&zenid=e2cebd5af88910c8e4b812c630e83629 With this I could have a dual power system that I could run off a 12v wall wart of 1-1.5 amps, hook up to a deep cycle for competitions.....

I'm not sure the controller KillSwitch listed earlier is a PID controller. I could not find the data sheet to figure that out. I did read the manual of the Auber controller, and that does have PID.

My million dollar question is
what you do with a pulsed output from a SSR (solid state relay)? Do you pulse a 120VAC fan to vary speed? Not the best idea. PID typically is used to pulse a heater (resistive load) to maintain temperature.

A better way is this: I am testing a blower control using PWM (pulse width modulation) to control a 24VDC fan which has a separate control input. So far it works great. I'm planning on ultimately controlling speed with a programmable controller that has thermocouple inputs. I will program the PID in the PLC to send a varying control input to the fan from an analog output of the PLC.

Here's the fan:

http://www.sanyodenki.co.jp/data/pdf_catalog/SAN_ACE/San_Ace_B97_E.pdf

Here's the speed controller:

http://www.electronickits.com/kit/complete/motor/ck1400.pdf

Here's my thermocouple. I'm using the Crocodile Clip Oven Probe part # THS-113-041 for testing:

http://www.thermoworks.com/products/probe/tc_wire.html

My analog output signal to control the fan will be hacked into the speed controller board to replace the speed pot with a voltage reference.

I plan to run everything from 24VDC (two deep cycle batteries). That way, no inverter, no unsafe higher voltages. And I can get 12VDC for some of the electronics from between the series connection of the batteries.

Don't even ask me what I have invested so far. Crying or Very sad

Here's the link for his unit http://www.lightobject.info/download/file.php?id=27&sid=9417d65c9fea17e39d8479e5280bf789

From the look of the sheets, his unit defaults to a cycle time of 20 seconds and the one I linked defaults to 2 but could be change to be up to 199 seconds. I'd think that might help overcome pulse issues. PWM is probably the cadillac way to go through from what I know of such things.

I don't know how well it works but the same place I was looking at the 12v pid at also sells their own smoker controller http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=14&products_id=170
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JimmieOhio
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17 10 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Soybomb wrote:
From the look of the sheets, his unit defaults to a cycle time of 20 seconds and the one I linked defaults to 2 but could be change to be up to 199 seconds. I'd think that might help overcome pulse issues. PWM is probably the cadillac way to go through from what I know of such things.

You seem to know this, but for others, here's the whole issue:

Temperature control usually involves heating up something, a mold, a chamber, whatever. Heaters are a resistive load and can be pulsed on and off quickly. Usually a SSR (solid state relay) is used so a relay with mechanical contacts does not burn up from the constant switching.

When you are trying to control a fan, you can either turn it on and off or vary the speed. Turning it on and off is not desirable because "traditional" motors are not designed to do this. There are other motors (read: big bucks) that can handle odd duty cycles.

As I said above, my PWM idea works great so far. However, I have spent hundreds on eBay to get all of the PLC parts, not to mention tens of dollars on the other "simple" parts.

How "mission critical" is tight blower control on a BBQ cooker? Probably not much, so the idea of pulsing the fan is not bad, for the money. I would just use a smaller fan and cycle it less often instead of blasting the firebox and getting huge spikes. IMHO, bigger may not be better when it comes to fan size to maintain steady temperatures in a cooker.
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JimmieOhio
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17 10 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another method of temp control would be to have the fan feed a pipe with a "Y", one leg goes into the firebox, one leg vents to the outside. In each leg of the Y, control the output with a solenoid, one normally open and one normally closed. They switch in unison based on demand for higher temps.

What would happen is this: Run the fan all the time. If the firebox needs more air, energize (open) the solenoid that leads into the firebox, while closing the solenoid that sends the blower air to the outside. When up to temp, de-energize (close) the solenoid leading to the firebox and open the one that vents to the outside.

Voile! Use the on-off output relay of the temp controller to run the solenoids. Solenoids are designed for much greater cycles and the fan never gets "dead-headed" by blowing air without an outlet for it. And, since you leave the fan running all the time, you can use a pretty big fan.
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Soybomb
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17 10 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JimmieOhio wrote:
Soybomb wrote:
From the look of the sheets, his unit defaults to a cycle time of 20 seconds and the one I linked defaults to 2 but could be change to be up to 199 seconds. I'd think that might help overcome pulse issues. PWM is probably the cadillac way to go through from what I know of such things.

You seem to know this, but for others, here's the whole issue:

Temperature control usually involves heating up something, a mold, a chamber, whatever. Heaters are a resistive load and can be pulsed on and off quickly. Usually a SSR (solid state relay) is used so a relay with mechanical contacts does not burn up from the constant switching.

When you are trying to control a fan, you can either turn it on and off or vary the speed. Turning it on and off is not desirable because "traditional" motors are not designed to do this. There are other motors (read: big bucks) that can handle odd duty cycles.

As I said above, my PWM idea works great so far. However, I have spent hundreds on eBay to get all of the PLC parts, not to mention tens of dollars on the other "simple" parts.

How "mission critical" is tight blower control on a BBQ cooker? Probably not much, so the idea of pulsing the fan is not bad, for the money. I would just use a smaller fan and cycle it less often instead of blasting the firebox and getting huge spikes. IMHO, bigger may not be better when it comes to fan size to maintain steady temperatures in a cooker.

I've never gotten to see/use a guru or stoker. My understanding is they're pulsed though?

I think you're onto something with the airflow too. Not to mention I'd hate to blow ash all over every time it kicks on with hurricane force winds. I found an old 9cfm 12v blower in my junk bin that I'm going to try to use with my wsm and even then I'm wondering if I'll be wishing I had something closer to 5. Oh well first step is to fabricate a mount, then I'll finalize the rest of the parts and order.

On a side note I've been googling a bit and it seems like many of the bradley smoker people are fans of the thermocouples from omega. Many of them feel they're faster to respond and they get tighter controls as a result. I'm not sure I"ll splurge and spend the extra $30 for one though. Sure wish I could extend a short thermocouple with a little cat5. Very Happy
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JimmieOhio
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17 10 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Soybomb wrote:
I've never gotten to see/use a guru or stoker. My understanding is they're pulsed though?

I've seen some, but did not investigate EXACTLY how they operate.

Soybomb wrote:
I think you're onto something with the airflow too. Not to mention I'd hate to blow ash all over every time it kicks on with hurricane force winds.

Guru's are pretty small, probably for this reason

Soybomb wrote:
On a side note I've been googling a bit and it seems like many of the bradley smoker people are fans of the thermocouples from omega. Many of them feel they're faster to respond and they get tighter controls as a result. I'm not sure I"ll splurge and spend the extra $30 for one though. Sure wish I could extend a short thermocouple with a little cat5. Very Happy

The famous Thermapen uses a type K (chromel/alumel). That is why it is so fast. Wink
You have to be careful extending these because the whole technology of thermocouples is based on millivolts generated by the junction between the two dissimilar metals. You should try to run thermocouple wiring directly whenever possible to reduce errors. If extending is absolutely necessary, use wire that is the same thermocouple grade as the thermocouple itself.

I always knew 4 years getting a Bachelors Degree in Electrical Engineering would pay off someday...
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JimmieOhio
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17 10 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KillSwitch, are you ever going to finish this thing? Very Happy

In case you haven't noticed, Soybomb and I have totally hijacked your thread until you do. My apologies. I did think our points were relevant to anyone attempting to copy your build, especially with modifications.

Technology is not for wimps. (Dilbert?)
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ryan cassidy
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17 10 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hijack... Smile Sure why not...

All I've got to say, and I'm a victim of this myself (no doubt about that), is that you guys are WAY over thinking this. Laughing

You don't need 25cfm fans for every smoker and the ones you do won't be as susceptible to the ash issue you were mentioning. All thought that is a good point and something folks should think about. Bigger isn't better in that case right?

In addition, the switching on/switching off thing happens all the time anyway with DC fans. Most of the Computer Fans (which most folks will use) aren't powered on all the time nor do they use really expensive wha tevers to control them. They constantly go on and off. And for the $5 it cost to have two 17cfm fans bought/shipped to you on eBay, we can replace them every year and still save $$ compared to a guru/stoker.

Anyway, I love the technical talk as I'm learning more and more, but part of what Killswitch's goal was to keep it simple and cheap for most of the SmokeRing. Just don't want others to loose site that this will work perfectly fine for 95% of us. Smile

Not a rant, please don't take it that way Smile

Cheers,
Ryan
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JimmieOhio
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17 10 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ryan cassidy wrote:
Anyway, I love the technical talk as I'm learning more and more, but part of what Killswitch's goal was to keep it simple and cheap for most of the SmokeRing.

I'm going the other route (complicated and expensive) since this is a science project for me. I have some ridiculously complicated control schemes kicking around for when I build my pit this summer. Electric door latches, fuel feed, damper control (maybe), wireless remote alarming using RF (with 250 foot range). But that will be my own post.

Hijack that one when you can. Wink
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ryan cassidy
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17 10 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow!!! I can't wait to see that. I enjoy some of the stuff in this thread. Stuff I'm convinced I won't kill myself with. Yours on the other hand, I may just be a spectator Smile

RYan
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killswitch505
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17 10 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holy $hit I just got off work its like 11pm!!! I know I havenít updated the post in a few days sorry Jimmie. I will work on that I have actually used the controller in the post several times and the first one I built has been in service for a while now probably a couple of months. Iíve got a couple of options for the guys that would like to spend the money Jimmie has tied up in in his (this is for people with out the background Jimmie and myself have) and will probably work as well as mine or Jimmieís and cost far less, well far less then Jimmies (I think I still only got about a 100 bucks tied up in mine) http://www.thebbqguru.com/
http://www.rocksbarbque.com/ the bad thing is that it wont open any doors , feed any fuel, control any dampers (I would love to hear the why on this), wireless remote alarming using RF (wait sorry the stoker has that) sorry Jimmie I was just tiring to make a post that the common man could do at home. and the hard parts I tried to walk them through I know I could have gotten very technical with this but why? I really donít mind I hijacking I do it all the time. but please Jimmie why donít you help me keep this simple for the guys. Notice Jimmie about the only hard part to this post is the soldering (I know its not the right way but it is the same way stoker and guru do theirs) I could very easily build I a better box for the fan but that requires welding which I own a welder (well 4 of them) but most of the ringers and even lurkers donít own one.
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