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Recipe stealing - Ethics vs. Legal
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h00kemh0rns
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 3:36 am    Post subject: Recipe stealing - Ethics vs. Legal Reply with quote

Just weigh in on your thoughts...interested in everyone's line of thinking.

Is it wrong to not give credit to someone else's recipe (plagirism?) What if it is a basterdized version of someone elses? Then the other question goes further and should recipes have a copyright?

My take...
Personally, the first one is ethical and doesn't need to be followed. If you want to give credit that's fine...but if not...what's the problem other than an ego gets bruised?

The latter is legal and as of today copyrights do not apply to recipes or their ingredients. A cookbook can be copyrighted but as a literary work not a culinary one. Does having a copyright on a recipe cause creativity or kill it? Would chefs have to ask for permission to use a mashed potato recipe and/or pay royalties? And who takes credit for the mashed potatoe recipe? Cool

--signed the Recipe Bandit Twisted Evil
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JimmieOhio
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you completely.

In regards to food, how many recipes are REALLY created exclusively by the people who submit the recipes as their own in the first place?

At the end of the day, there are only so many foods and so many combinations possible. For most foodies to call one recipe their own is ridiculous.
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82's BBQ
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally think it is wrong if you don't atleast acknowledge that someone else might have contributed, in part or completely, to the recipe.
On the idea of copyrights, I can't see that working. Some recipes, such as mashed potatoes (Original example provided by h00kemh0rns), can be easily duplicated without seeing the original recipe, Therefore, a copyright would be ineffective and difficult to police. It would be difficult to prove that someone had seen an original recipe and copied it to be used for the own gain. The arguement of dumb luck could be used to defend the person. An example of this is one of my own person experience. I used to bartend several years ago and I would take great pleasure in duplicating a signature drink of another bar. I would give a similar name, but I would still give credit to the original bar ie. "This is a 'sand trap' it is my version of Bar X's 'trap' see if you can tell the difference"
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are going to make money selling the recipe and it isn't your own and you don't give credit, I see that as being wrong (whether it's legal or not, I don't know). But I think it would weigh heavy on a person's conscience (if they have one).
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roxy
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 4:08 am    Post subject: Re: Recipe stealing - Ethics vs. Legal Reply with quote

h00kemh0rns wrote:
Just weigh in on your thoughts...interested in everyone's line of thinking.

Is it wrong to not give credit to someone else's recipe (plagirism?) What if it is a basterdized version of someone elses? Then the other question goes further and should recipes have a copyright?

My take...
Personally, the first one is ethical and doesn't need to be followed. If you want to give credit that's fine...but if not...what's the problem other than an ego gets bruised?

The latter is legal and as of today copyrights do not apply to recipes or their ingredients. A cookbook can be copyrighted but as a literary work not a culinary one. Does having a copyright on a recipe cause creativity or kill it? Would chefs have to ask for permission to use a mashed potato recipe and/or pay royalties? And who takes credit for the mashed potatoe recipe? Cool

--signed the Recipe Bandit Twisted Evil


I think that if you are going to post some one else's recipe on the internet you should give credit to who ever originated the recipe. For the most part, recipes that are posted become public domain and can be used for what ever. The right thing to do is give credit where it is due.

As far as I know when it comes to recipes, if you change one ingredient then it becomes your own.. So I am sure that a lot of chefs out there are doing just that when it comes to making dishes and I dont think there is a big deal when it comes to using a recipe in a restaurant per say. When it comes to publishing that is another story and I think that royalties would apply if I am not mistaken.

Personally, I have worked hard to create my own recipes by doing a lot of research and test kitchen work. My sister thinks I have a problem the way I go about it and need some professional help.. Laughing I know I have been inspired by experiences and certain flavours but I would hope that anything I have posted is not exactly as some one else's...

The only ones that I know of that copyright a recipe are the big chains that can afford to spend money doing so or want to protect their interests.

I think that who ever invented mashed potatoes is long dead by now.. Wink
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JimmieOhio
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 4:18 am    Post subject: Re: Recipe stealing - Ethics vs. Legal Reply with quote

roxy wrote:
I think that if you are going to post some one else's recipe on the internet you should give credit to who ever originated the recipe. For the most part, recipes that are posted become public domain and can be used for what ever. The right thing to do is give credit where it is due.

You don't have to go farther than this website for an example: "Roxy's South Carolina Mustard Sauce". And Ringers do justice in giving credit to Roxy at its every mention. (I know I do.)

There needs to be a point of clarification about "recipes"... Mashed Potatoes is no more a recipe than is "toast". It is not the same example as "Aunt Martha's Chocolate & BBQ Sauce Covered Kiwi Fruit in Puff Pastry with a Lemon Zest Glaze". Chances are that really is Aunt Martha's and only Aunt Martha's recipe. (sorry for the disgusting example).
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SoEzzy
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a bit I stole from the Washington Post.

Washington Post wrote:


U.S. copyright law addresses recipes, but what holds sway can be called either ethics or etiquette. Cooking is not considered inventing; rather, it evolves. Copyright law specifies that "substantial literary expression in the form of an explanation or directions," such as a cookbook, can be copyrighted but that a mere list of ingredients cannot receive that protection.

The ethics guidelines of the International Association of Culinary Professionals focus on giving proper attribution to recipes that are published or taught. The association advises using the words "adapted from," "based on" or "inspired by," depending on how much a recipe has been revised. ("Adapted from" is the phrasing favored by The Washington Post and many other newspaper food sections, which, along with culinary instructors, enjoy "fair use" of someone's creation for the purpose of teaching, news reporting, scholarship or research.) The only time a recipe should be printed without attribution, the association contends, is when it has been changed so substantially that it no longer resembles its source.

In cyberspace, however, there's some confusion about where to draw the line. Many Web sites carry warnings about posting "copyrighted" material, but most do not define what that means in cooking circles.

Rachel Rappaport, a Baltimore teacher, operates a blog called Coconut & Lime in which she shares recipes she has liked. She says her understanding -- a common one -- is that if she changes two or three ingredients in a recipe, it becomes her own and requires no attribution.

At the eGullet Society of Culinary Arts & Letters, an online site for epicures, copyright laws and courtesies are a constant topic of discussion, said founder Steven A. Shaw, a lawyer-turned-food writer. Shaw contends that posting a lengthy discussion of legal and ethical conduct, enforcing detailed membership requirements and constant monitoring of content -- including recipes -- keep his site from joining what he calls "the Wild West" of online copyright violations.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/03/AR2006010300316.html
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Cal-B-Que
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Roxy; use their recipe - give em credit. Change the recipe by even one ingredient, it's yours. But it doesnt hurt to give the recipe creator credit for inspiring your own recipe. In that light, I must give credit to Roxy for my own version of Mustard Sauce. I took that recipe and changed a couple of things to my tastes.

Personally, I have probably altered nearly every recipe that I tried and liked enough to try again (at least in the last 10 years). I am sure that most of the recipes that we find on the internet or TV were created the same way.

I dont thing recipe copyrighting is legally protectable.
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Skidder
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too agree on giving the person recognition if they posted it and call it there recipe. Like Roxy's sauce, in my household it's alway and will alway's be called Roxy's sauce. Even though I changed it up a bit also.
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mutha chicken bbq
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 6:41 am    Post subject: Re: Recipe stealing - Ethics vs. Legal Reply with quote

JimmieOhio wrote:
"Aunt Martha's Chocolate & BBQ Sauce Covered Kiwi Fruit in Puff Pastry with a Lemon Zest Glaze"


Man I'm gonna have to give that a try! Only without the BBQ sauce. Shocked Wink
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h00kemh0rns
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Couple points brought up...

Flat out taking of someone's recipe and saying it's yours.
    In the restaurant biz as a chef you should be embarrased to say you created something.
    In the real world it's just a ethical/moral dilema that you can't control.

Neither are considered illegal as recipes/ingredients can not be copyrighted. Even if you make a profit from said recipe. The cookbooks are copyrighted based on the literacy not the recipe. Maybe a good tar and feather would help. Twisted Evil

Posting or using someone's recipe and not given explicit accolades to who created. This is more so in the real world than a restaurant/professional setting as the assumption would be a chef and the menu is unique unto him.
    This is more of a nice to have but if it happens no harm no foul. A little ruffling of feathers b/c you didn't get noticed or credited.
    I say write a cookbook if you want accolades b/c personal postings won't get you much.


Changing the recipe by one ingredient it should be yours.
    I don't think this would help b/c I gaurantee someone will still get miffed. If I changed the number of garlic cloves in a sauce someone would definitely get miffed.


All in all...I don't see the point to any of the "give credit" or "plagirism". I say open source to all recipes, give accolades if you wish, don't if you don't want to, and spin the recipes however you wish. The biggest risk is if you own a restaurant and steal another restaurants recipe verbatim (sans one across the country or world but even that shouldn't matter.)
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Cal-B-Que
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

h00kemh0rns

What percentage of recipes (by your standards) would you truly consider "original"? .005%?

My point is that most recipes are created by chefs/cooks who altered other reicpes to their tastes.
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lantern
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always give credit where it's due. Hell, I can't even serve Sa-Mokin's sauce to family without mentioning where it came from. Laughing

It just doesn't feel right. And I don't do a dang thing that doesn't feel right to me. If you're the type of person that it doesn't bother then that's fine with me too. What the hell do I care what your ethics are? Now if it was a legal matter......things may be different. Wink
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roxy
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skidder wrote:
I too agree on giving the person recognition if they posted it and call it there recipe. Like Roxy's sauce, in my household it's alway and will alway's be called Roxy's sauce. Even though I changed it up a bit also.


That is classic Skidder.. Wink Laughing Laughing

That is about as close to accolades or recognition as I will get.. To have some one bother to try one of my recipes and take the time to write the label and take the pic.. What more could I ask for.. And to think of the BBQ that it went on.. and happy people eating that food.. Well, that is why I do what I do.
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82's BBQ
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lantern wrote:
I always give credit where it's due. Hell, I can't even serve Sa-Mokin's sauce to family without mentioning where it came from. Laughing

It just doesn't feel right. And I don't do a dang thing that doesn't feel right to me. If you're the type of person that it doesn't bother then that's fine with me too. What the hell do I care what your ethics are? Now if it was a legal matter......things may be different. Wink


AMEN my brutha AMEN
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OddThomas
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are a lot of variables involved with this type of “intellectual property”, so it's hard to pin things down to black and white, but in the case of recipes I think it comes down to intent. If you knowingly try to pass off someone's work as your own, you're a looser.

That being said, there is a lot of random similarity in the world of recipes. I'm sure my baked apples are very similar to and possibly even an exact duplicate of other versions of baked apples; however, I made mine blind and measured ingredients to my taste, wrote those measurements down and that was that. If someone else were to try to lay claim to the recipe... I'm sorry, but we'll just have to share because I didn't intentionally copy your recipe. Smile

As for the concept of changing ingredients to make a recipe your own, it should be significantly changed and even then you should probably cite the source of your inspiration. However, this also boils down to intent... changing a couple of ingredients for the sole purpose of claiming originality is lame. I've seen recipes posted here that claim to be Joe Blow's Signature So and Such Dish that are just barely a variation of other folk's original works. I may use a lot of ideas that foks around here post, but I'd never republish it claiming them as my own.

At the end of the day, even in literary works it is accepted that many writers might have the same thoughts and ideas, but they must present them in their own words. Anything short of that is just unethical.
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Harry Nutczak
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am aware of a court case where there was a family fued that involved an Italian Sausage recipe.

The family ran 2 different restaurants together with the same menu and name in perfect harmony for over 50 years.

Then they had some disagreements and seperated into 2 different ownershipped business's.

Each clained they had the original sausage recipe (it is really good stuff BTW and almost worth killing over to have this secret recipe)

The judge in this case ruled that neither one of the 2 factions could use the exact original recipe for sausage anymore. and each must change or omit a part of the recipe ingredients or amounts to legally use it.

neither place has the exact taste I remember from childhood, but the place the sisters own is closest to what I remember the taste as being.

I have been trying to duplicate the recipe from taste for over 20 years now and have not been successful. I have tried to bribe some cooks, but the sausage was always made by the owners under secretive surroundings.

It is now made under contract by a meat purveyor named UWP., it is kept in a safe and only a few key people in that business know the recipe.

I have tried bribing them, begged for a raw sample. asked to buy it under the table and I cannot get it from them no matter what I offer.

Everytime I am at the restaurant I beg for 5-10 pounds of raw sausage to take home with me, it will never happen.


if anyone thinks they can duplicate this recipe by taste of the cooked product, I will fly you to the city where the restaurant is and pay you hansomely for duplicating it and even make you a partner in the sauage business I would start from this recipe. We would be millionaires in less than 6 months!!


BTW, the names of the restaurants involved are DeMarinis & Mama DeMarinis in Milwuakee WI.

If you've eaten there, you'll understand what I am talking about
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the first time i made Roxy's mustard sauce , i knew i had to have it in my bbq ,, so i sent Roxy a p.m. and asked him if i could use his sauce . he said yes, so i called it Roxy's spicy mustard sauce . its been a staple in my bbq ever since .my customers love it ,and so do i ..... BUT ,,,, its not always that easy ,,, most people are not that easy to get along with .. but Roxy is a true professional and a gentleman ... I WOULD NEVER THINK OF NOT NAMING THAT SAUCE AFTER ROXY ....
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roxy
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pafisher wrote:
the first time i made Roxy's mustard sauce , i knew i had to have it in my bbq ,, so i sent Roxy a p.m. and asked him if i could use his sauce . he said yes, so i called it Roxy's spicy mustard sauce . its been a staple in my bbq ever since .my customers love it ,and so do i ..... BUT ,,,, its not always that easy ,,, most people are not that easy to get along with .. but Roxy is a true professional and a gentleman ... I WOULD NEVER THINK OF NOT NAMING THAT SAUCE AFTER ROXY ....


I dont know about a gentleman, I work hard to not be that my friend.. Professional.. maybe some day if my dreams come true.

Thanks for the kind words none the less. Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya know, I believe that everyone makes their own variations of different recipes. For instance, I like some of Paul Kirk's rubs. They have just a bit too much salt for my taste, so I drop the salt content down. Now if I went out and marketed my "new" rub, I'd consider that wrong. That's me though. Jane Doe could do the same thing and market it without any feeling, and possibly make some money. Hey more power to her. But if we're talking about BBQ here, the ingredients in sauce are all the same. Acid, water, sugar, spices, etc. If you live in NY and your recipe is the exact same as somebody else's in Cali, "Great minds think alike" right?

Smile That's all I've got on it.
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