Question about "the danger zone"

[Smokinfunk]

I've read a bunch of posts about the danger zone of temperature range, and it forces me to wonder - why does that matter at all if the finished temp of the meat you're smoking is higher than that? I know that there can be "pockets" in the meat that you may not hit with your thermometer, but assuming that there aren't, what difference does it make if the meat sat too long in the danger zone before cooking? Or even during cooking?
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WSM 22.5", Digi-Q ATC, Cyber-Q ATC
Brinkmann Cimarron Deluxe offset smoker
Weber One-touch 22.5" grill
Weber One-touch 26" grill
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If God hadn't meant for us to eat animals, He would not have made them out of meat!

[jess]

I am sure there will be others chime in with the math and science behind your question but the short answer is between 40-140 bacteria multiply (spoil meat etc.) once it is spoiled heating to a higher temp does not negate the spoilage..

[Smokinfunk]

Ah ok - so it's not so much a question of health (as long as it's cooked to a high enough temp) but of taste?
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WSM 22.5", Digi-Q ATC, Cyber-Q ATC
Brinkmann Cimarron Deluxe offset smoker
Weber One-touch 22.5" grill
Weber One-touch 26" grill
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If God hadn't meant for us to eat animals, He would not have made them out of meat!

[jess]

We really need a pro- ALIEN!!! -to give you the science on this but 1, I don't think you will like the taste of spoiled Q. 2 The temp. to kill bacteria is considerably higher than 140,the temp to prevent bacteria growth(spoilage)

[Michael B]

The bacteria multiply between 40 and 140 degrees.
What they leave behind when they die is toxic.
A normal healthy adult can tolerate a certain level of the toxins, but as that level raises the chances of them making you sick also increases.
This is why you see posts that say, I'd eat it, but I wouldn't give it to children / old people / sick people / etc.
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Michael B.
I have not yet begun to procrastinate!

[Smokinfunk]

Ok, now it all makes sense. Thanks MichaelB, Jess!
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WSM 22.5", Digi-Q ATC, Cyber-Q ATC
Brinkmann Cimarron Deluxe offset smoker
Weber One-touch 22.5" grill
Weber One-touch 26" grill
============================

If God hadn't meant for us to eat animals, He would not have made them out of meat!

[Harry Nutczak]

40-140 degrees is the prime temperature for bacterial growth, to slow the growth of these harmful bacteria you either need to store the food above or below that range.

yes food will still spoil either side of those temp ranges, But it will take much longer for it to spoil.

And between those temps is an especially good incubation environment for the real deadly toxins to multiply.

The real nasty ones can even multiply in conditions with no oxygen present, they do not create a foul smell or an odd taste and will kill you by paralyzing your muscles, and once your diaphragm muscle is paralyzed you'll turn blue very quick from suffocation. And from what I understand, there is no ill feeling associated with this certain fooborne illness.

What is this toxin??
Botulism!
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[Smokinfunk]

Yeow! This is what I love about all of you on this site - ask and ye shall receive. All these answers make one realize that there needs to be more public education, not just about proper cooking temps to kill bacteria, proper storage, but about the reasoning behind it all. Until I joined The Ring, I'd been walking around with the idea that food needs to be refrigerated or it will spoil, and that you cook to certain temps to kill bacteria. But I'm reminded of a guy I remember from my dorm way back in college, who would grab some old bologna out of the fridge, and if it didn't smell right he'd just fry it, saying that killed whatever was there, so nothing to worry about. I never had the nerve to eat any of it, but it always sounded logical, and I'd be willing to bet there are plenty of others who have never heard about the leftover toxins regardless of cooking.

Wonder if that guy from school is still with us?
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WSM 22.5", Digi-Q ATC, Cyber-Q ATC
Brinkmann Cimarron Deluxe offset smoker
Weber One-touch 22.5" grill
Weber One-touch 26" grill
============================

If God hadn't meant for us to eat animals, He would not have made them out of meat!

[Frosty]

& baked potatoes are hi risk of botulism ...
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This stuff ain't rocket science,,,Great Gramma cooked on a horizontal-partitioned wood smoker every day!

[Alien BBQ]

BBQ’in in the Danger Zone

Well it’s not Top Gun but cooking food in the danger zone is just as risky as flying by the seat of your pants at mach 1. The “Danger Zone” I speak of is the temperature range of 40 – 140 degrees and is the zone in which many dangerous pathogens readily grow. This is not to say that they won’t grow in hotter or colder climates because they will. But they will grow at such a slow rate that they seldom pose a problem for normal humans. Well before I get going I should explain what a “normal” human really is. Normal humans are those people do not fit in one of these categories.
1. Infants. Needless to say, their immune systems have not developed as of yet. In fact, they have problems with regular food (they can build an allergic reaction) and honey before age 2 is a dangerous food.
2. Elderly. Well, some elderly people have a lot of trouble with spices and their immune systems are failing or in sad shape.
3. Immune Deficient. These individuals include people with thyroid or liver problems, immune deficient diseases, and pregnant people. In fact, if you are pregnant, do not plan on eating your steak any other way than well done. While the steak would not hurt you, raw beef can cause lethal problems for developing children.
4. Anyone recovering from a illness or surgery.
It takes about 50,000 run of the mill pathogens to hurt a normal human being. It takes about 4 hours for a colony of these pathogens to grow large enough to cause harm. *** This 4 hours is important later on. If you have ever eaten something and had to run to the bathroom before the end of the meal; that probably wasn’t food borne illness (food poisoning.) An attack that fast is normally histamine poising. As growing and developing adults, we have (and am still) able to develop allergies to different types of food. It may be something you have eaten all your life then …. Bam! You have a reaction to it and spend time praying to the porcelain god. Food borne illness is very easy to describe and is remembered for years. To put it bluntly, you have something coming out of every opening to your body for the next 2 days, and if you died, you would feel better.
Keeping food cold is one way to prevent or slow the growth of dangerous pathogens. In fact, improper cooling the #1 cause of food borne illness. People just don’t know how to quickly cool food. Remember that 4 hours we talked about earlier? Well that four hours is actually accumulative. Food can only sit off temp for a total of 4 hours. This includes cooking, cooling, and reheating. This normally the place when someone who has taken a food class speaks up and say that 140 degrees for 15 second is suppose to kill most pathogens. Well that is true until you are talking about constant heating and re-heating of food. Some pathogens will die at 140 degrees but when they die, they release a heat resistant toxin that will live past the 140 degree mark. A good example of one of these is Staphylococcus (staph.) In many cases it may be heat resistant and is also known as the pathogen that eats your flesh off your bones. The only way to prevent it is to not allow it to grow in the first place.
Quickly cooling food to below 40 degrees is done a few ways. A blast cooler is by far the fastest way of dropping the temp of any meat. The only problem is most of us do not have access to a blast cooler. What about putting the food in a freezer. Well, this is why most health departments do not allow residential appliances in most commercial establishments. Putting hot food in a non-commercial freezer does nothing but raise the temperature of the freezer initially. This could cause other problems with other hazardous foods. Now at my house, I have a dedicated small freezer with a instant chill setting for cooling my BBQ. I can use this because it is dedicated to only one thing, …. cooling. Once it is cooled properly, I move it to another unit. Another way to cut the meat into smaller pieces. Smaller pieces cool faster and thus do not stay in the danger zone as long as large pieces. Once you have that turkey done, let everyone see it, and take it back to the kitchen to cut into smaller pieces.
One popular way of rapid cooling is with an ice bath. Take that meat, bag it or put it in a bowl and surround it with ice (in the sink, another bowl, or in a cooler.) This will rapidly cool the food down and give you added re-heating time later.
Heating and or holding food above 140 degrees is the preferred way of preventing pathogen growth. In fact you can hot hold food at above 140 degrees most of the day. Now the flavor and quality of the food will decrease with time, but the safety will remain high. One of the biggest no-no’s I would find when inspecting restaurants is the belief that if my steam table is at 140 degrees, then my food must be at 140. This will not happen; the food temp will always lag the table temp by at least 20 degrees. The second no-no is using the steam table to heat the food. The idea behind a steam table is hot holding. You must have the food up to temp BEFORE putting it in the steam table.
When it comes to BBQ I will be the first to say that we violate good practices often. They may be small violations, but we use our experience to guide our judgment. This, in practice is not a very reliable way to insure food safety. One bad BBQ experience can ruin a business. Pulling meat early and or holding it for long periods of time in a cooler will work, but it takes knowledge of food safety practices and experience to pull it off. I would rather get my timing down so my food is ready when it is supposed to be rather than “hope for the best.”
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https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaeloberry

[Smokinfunk]

I guess he told me!

No, seriously, thanks Alien for that very informative post.

Mind sharing the brand/model of that "instant chill" freezer you use?
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============================
WSM 22.5", Digi-Q ATC, Cyber-Q ATC
Brinkmann Cimarron Deluxe offset smoker
Weber One-touch 22.5" grill
Weber One-touch 26" grill
============================

If God hadn't meant for us to eat animals, He would not have made them out of meat!

[marvsbbq]

You know, ANYONE can take a "food handlers" class, you do not have to own a business to do so.

Contact your local HD for details and times. The class is usually about 2 hrs and cost around $8-$10.

You (as a group) go over the book and what will be on the test. The test is pretty much common sense, no real "trick" questions and all multiple choice.

Here in WA, if you do not pass the test, they will let you go back to your seat and look up the answers and mark the correct response and take it back up for grading and get your food handlers card....most states good for 3 years the first time around.
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Often imitated but never duplicated

[ibornagain]

I agree...i just finished the "serv-safe" class. It was a great learning experience...everyone in there were food establishment owners or workers except me...i'm an industrial electrical / mechanical troobleshooter who loves to cook & wants to safely serve bbq to family, friends...

[tucciim]

isn't our meat in the danger zone a long time when cooking in the smoker? especially if taken from fridge to smoker.