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Slamdunkpro
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Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 130
Location: Springfield.VA
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 Posted: Jul 25 2007 Post subject: |
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[quote="marvsbbq"] | Slamdunkpro wrote: |
There are a few things no one has pointed out as of yet:..... |
FYI Marv, I didn't write what you attributed to me in that quote. OddThomas did.
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OddThomas
BBQ Super Pro
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 2010
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Jul 25 2007 Post subject: |
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| marvsbbq wrote: | | Slamdunkpro wrote: |
There are a few things no one has pointed out as of yet: |
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Hi,
FYI (just in case anyone is keeping score) those were my questions Marv. As usual I was trying to see both sides of the issue because some people here are all to quick to grab pitchfork and torch. Maybe with your new system, which is the moral of the story, it won't happen again. |
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corndog
BBQ Super Pro
Joined: 02 Dec 2006
Posts: 1209
Location: Zebulon, NC
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| Posted: Jul 25 2007 Post subject: |
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OddThomas, check your PM...
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Kevin "Corndog" Cameron
Dang it boy, that's some mighty fine eatin'!!!! |
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OddThomas
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Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 2010
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Jul 25 2007 Post subject: |
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adolpho
BBQ Super Pro
Joined: 03 Aug 2005
Posts: 1067
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Jul 25 2007 Post subject: |
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[quote="Big Brother Smoke"] | adolpho wrote: | Just a heads up, I combined two posted topics in this one commentary. The other topic is from the "What happened" posting.
- Adolph
Big Brother Smoke puts out a monetary figure and wow that makes me think that it is unfortunate how much money can be loss when extra people show up. Of course I don't agree with the plus gratuity mark in there, but that's just me and my personal opinion.
The issues:
Mandatory Gratuity or Service Charge? (original reason why the "what happened..." thread started)
More guests than planned for (this thread)
Bride crying (this thread)
Mandatory gratuity or Service charge - I don't care what you mask it in, but the moment you are CHARGING someone, it is not a gratuity. In fact, the term "mandatory gratuity" should not exist. I've stated in posts from the past that gratuity is an appreciation for services provided. Gratuity is something you earn. Service charge is a fee for additional work, and when you're hiring an on-site caterer, serving is part of that package, not additional. A wireless phone company sells you a phone and a calling plan. You want the phone turned on while you're at the store, the CSR tell you that you need to pay a $20 service fee or you can go home and turn it on through the internet for free. You see, additional work/service. But does it make you willing to pay if the CSR tells you "for a $20 mandatory gratuity, we will turn your phone on here at the store."
Let the tip thing go man! You are not changing my mind 
I put out a consistent fine product and dammit I am charging a mandatory gratuity 
Besides most of my clients wonder why I only charge 15% when everyone else charges 18 -22 %.
If you lived where I lived you would charge a mandatory gratuity or be seen as a 2 bit caterer. |
I ain't no 2 bit anything! 
J/K
I have to agree, it must be based on where you live. But my problem is the definition. To me, it's a service charge, call it what it is even if the people gripe. I've been in the service business a long time and charge a fee and get a tip when one feels obliged to give one. If I feel my work deserves more, I won't slap someone with a mandatory gratuity, I'll just charge more. Why? Because I'm a professional in my business and should charge what I'm worth in the first place. PAZ!!
Hey Marv, I'm very surprised that in 13 years you've only dealt with a wedding coordinator once. In my parts and in Arizona (where I lived a few years), in any formal setting or rented venue a coordinator is needed or comes with the package. The exceptions would be receptions held in VFWs, American Legions, Firehouse Halls, and private land (informal settings). And then in those cases, as I stated before, the coordinator is not necceessarily an actual coordinator, but a friend, relative, parent, etc. acting as a liason between the wedding party and staff. If a bride is doing it all herself, she wouldn't be able to get married having to juggle everything in one day, unless it's a small wedding. This has just been my experience and I've dealt with weddings for over 15 years. I bet if you check into it at the next few weddings, you'll realize there is a coordinator or liason. Just never noticed. Maybe your new policy will work better with knowing who the coordinator/liason is. Right away you'll know the guest count and see if there's a discrepency. Then deal with them and they'll work it out with the bride.
The only reason I thought the father paid was because.... | marvsbbq wrote: | ...Well, when it came time to pay the piper (me), HER father called me and said "the kids kind of got carried away and their won't be near that many guests". He said the groom will be calling me in the next few days with new numbers....I said "Ok, not a problem I will do what ever you need".
Well the groom calls and said they will only have 285 (from 350). Ok, we sent the new invoice and they (the parents) sent the check right away. All good....so far......... |
The story was incomplete so some of us went with what we knew. Sorry about that.
Dawgphan, you're right, it probably can be done with some hustle.......serious hustle!!!!
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marvsbbq
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Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 6186
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| Posted: Jul 25 2007 Post subject: |
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allsmokenofire I guess I did not make myself clear in my response. I have never had this many guests (18%) OVER the number paid for show up to eat.
Yes, I have had a 'few' show that were not expected and have not had any such problem. |
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marvsbbq
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Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 6186
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| Posted: Jul 25 2007 Post subject: |
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| adolpho Unless it was brought to my attention either prior to or during the event, I would not 'assume' there to be a coordinator or liason. I guess around here it is not that big of a deal to have one??? I dunno I am just assuming... |
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marvsbbq
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Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 6186
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| Posted: Jul 25 2007 Post subject: |
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| allsmokenofire wrote: | I guess the question I still have about the wedding is why not even attempt to collect for the additional guests. I'm still fuzzy on whether it's in poor taste to ask for the overage to be paid for, or to accuse your clients of intentionally trying to "shaft" you?  |
I will be the first to admit....I could of handled it differently... but I guess we can all say that about every decision we make....There is always a 'different' way we could of handled it. |
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adolpho
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Joined: 03 Aug 2005
Posts: 1067
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Jul 25 2007 Post subject: |
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Marv,
I think the great Northwest is like an area of its own. The wedding coordinator may not be popular or needed out there. It would surely help though. They can be a little pesty sometimes, but also very helpful. They don't mind being the bad guy, it comes with their role, so use it!
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BBQMAN
BBQ Super All Star
Joined: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 15475
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Jul 25 2007 Post subject: |
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By the way Marv, the overage was more like 22%! 
Interesting thread, to be sure! Thanks for sharing it!
I will be out of town for a few days with no computer. You guys have a great week!
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BBQMAN
"I Turned A Hobby Into A Business".
Providing "IMHO" Since 2005. |
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marvsbbq
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Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 6186
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| Posted: Jul 25 2007 Post subject: |
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| Thom wrote: | Besides the fiasco of the guest count/food count/payment count, I'm amazed at the logistics of the whole thing:
You arrive 2 1/2 hours before serving time and set up all your Marv'lous equipment, then start cooking in a rain soaked area, spill 50 servings of beans, manage to cook enough food, all on-site, for at least 285 people in <2.5 hours, (tritip, chicken, green beans and salad -no bread? drinks?), have 5 serving people, one of which is the runner. That's 57 guests/server. Must have taken a while to get them through the line.
And the wedding? In a barn, no parking, ceremony in the barn loft. The lower floor must have been full of tables and chairs. Do you as caterers have to pick up the dirty plates? Must have been a huge loft to hold 285+ people. What would you wear to a wedding like that?
I'm amazed....
Thom |
To answear your questions here....
#1. The spilled beans I left in the bottom of my smoker as there was no way to clean them out until I got it to a car wash the next day.
#2. Chicken and Tri-tip only takes an hour to cook. It does not have to 'tenderize' from the low and slow cooking such as other meats.
#3. We were not serving bread or drinks....they did not order them from me.
#4. I had PLANNED to have 2 serving lines OUTSIDE with 2 servers in each line. When I had to move the serving line INSIDE...there was only room for 1 serving line....so yes, it took a while to get them through the line...we did the best we could.
#5. Yes, the lower floor was full of tables as well as a covered area along the side of the barn.
#6. No, my company does not offer the service of 'picking up plates'.
#7. I did not go up into the loft the day of..I had seen it a week or so prior when I went to check out the site as I had never been there before.
#8. All of my crew wear black pants and a black 'Marv's T-shirt with a Black Marv's apron...Sharp as a tack!! |
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OddThomas
BBQ Super Pro
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 2010
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Jul 25 2007 Post subject: |
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| adolpho wrote: | | I think the great Northwest is like an area of its own. The wedding coordinator may not be popular or needed out there. |
I think I agree more with your earlier comments Adolpho. Even if the coordinator isn't official or even if there are several helpers rather than just one, someone is always running interference for the bride, so she can get ready for the wedding--she can't be in two places at once. Sometimes it's a sister or a mother or a friend who's not in the wedding party, but like you say there is almost always someone service providers can approach with issues rather than the bride or groom. The trick is determining who the "planner pro tem" is and getting in front of them with your issue.
I'll just take Marv's word that they were trying to bend him over; and I know I'd be pissed if it were happening to me. Regardless, even if we aren't sure the right course of action to take or how to prevent the issue to begin with, it's still helpful to see what maybe we should not to do in a similar situation. Like Marv said, there's always another way to handle things. I'll start with trying not to make the bride cry, lol. |
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marvsbbq
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Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 6186
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| Posted: Jul 25 2007 Post subject: |
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The great thing about all of this and posting on this forum is I have learned a great deal. Not only from my own experience from this event but from some of you as well.
It is always nice to bounce our experiences off one another to better serve our future guests and our own reputation.
Thank you all for your input. |
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OddThomas
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Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 2010
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Jul 25 2007 Post subject: |
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| marvsbbq wrote: | | #2. Chicken and Tri-tip only takes an hour to cook. It does not have to 'tenderize' from the low and slow cooking such as other meats. |
My chicken take a little longer sometimes (usually about 1.5 hours), but I like my Tri-Tip cooked pretty fast--when I can find it around here that is. Most folks I've talked to don't do this though--they try to go slow with it. I think it comes out like hot shoe leather, but they seem to like it. Either way you guys must have been humping, but I suppose having 5 people makes a big difference in how fast you can get things going.
- How fast does that pit come up to temp?
- At what temperature do you cook?
- Do you cook Tri-Tip to about 135-140 in the center then pull and rest?
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OddThomas
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Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 2010
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Jul 25 2007 Post subject: |
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| marvsbbq wrote: | | OddThomas That is funny you mention this, (charging an overage fee) I said the same thing to my wife and through our discussions, decided it would not work. |
What was the deciding factors for you? I think BBQMAN hit it pretty well with the point "knowing how much food to cook" still being a problem. You can get around that if you're over (by tapping the reserve find to cover yourself), but it will eat into your profit margin when the guest count is accurate or within tolerances. |
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marvsbbq
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Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 6186
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| Posted: Jul 25 2007 Post subject: |
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| OddThomas wrote: | | marvsbbq wrote: | | #2. Chicken and Tri-tip only takes an hour to cook. It does not have to 'tenderize' from the low and slow cooking such as other meats. |
My chicken take a little longer sometimes (usually about 1.5 hours), but I like my Tri-Tip cooked pretty fast--when I can find it around here that is. Most folks I've talked to don't do this though--they try to go slow with it. I think it comes out like hot shoe leather, but they seem to like it. Either way you guys must have been humping, but I suppose having 5 people makes a big difference in how fast you can get things going.
- How fast does that pit come up to temp?
- At what temperature do you cook?
- Do you cook Tri-Tip to about 135-140 in the center then pull and rest?
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My new pit (Ole Hickory) comes to temp fairly quick. It is so well insulated, really it only takes about 20 min to be @ cooking temp. Does take a 'tad' longer to get to 325...but to get to 200...not long at all. I put those Tri-tips in when it hit that 200 mark then let it finish coming to 325 to finish cooking them.
My cooking temp all depends on what I am cooking...ribs, brisket, butts...cook about 225-250. Fast cooking meats (not have to tenderize) I cook @ a higher heat...usually around 300-325.
My new pit has a 'cook and hold' feature so when the product is done cooking it will drop the temp to 140 and hold it there until I turn it off.
The last time I cooked butts I used this feature and held them in the smoker after they were done cooking for an extra 4 hrs while I did some other things...then shredded them.
Yes, I like to cook my Tri-tips to an internal temp of 135-140 also..
I catered a party last week where the host said he cooked Tri-tip for his family over the 4th of July and when I asked at what temp he cooked them to......he said 180!!!!! He said his family likes their meat WELL DONE...what ya gonna do???
This party was for his company not his family...thank goodness. |
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marvsbbq
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Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 6186
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| Posted: Jul 25 2007 Post subject: |
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| OddThomas wrote: | | marvsbbq wrote: | | OddThomas That is funny you mention this, (charging an overage fee) I said the same thing to my wife and through our discussions, decided it would not work. |
What was the deciding factors for you? I think BBQMAN hit it pretty well with the point "knowing how much food to cook" still being a problem. You can get around that if you're over (by tapping the reserve find to cover yourself), but it will eat into your profit margin when the guest count is accurate or within tolerances. |
We just didn't think it would be proper to charge a client for extra guests that they MIGHT have. |
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Pete
BBQ Fan
Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 217
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| Posted: Jul 25 2007 Post subject: |
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Hey, Marv, interesting story. Sorry to hear about your experience. But I have one question. How much time was there from the time they called to tell you they only had 285 until the day of the event? The reason I ask is because timing is everything. If it was a month or more, I could see people coming out of the woodworks because they forgot to respond, blah, blah, blah. Probably not to the difference you saw, but it could happen. But if that conversation occurred within a week or even two, then that fish is probably as rotten as they come.
Weddings are expensive and many wedding-related purveyors gouge the heck out of couples. When dad said the couple got carried away, I doubt they meant the headcount. He probably meant the expenses of the other things related to their wedding. I highly doubt that you're one of those hosers because you probably price on headcount regardless of the event. Despite people giving you a hard time about mandatory gratuity, I doubt that you tack on wedding surcharges like other less scrupulous vendors. Your problem was probably due to being one of the few areas in that wedding where it was possible to recoup some of the blown budget.
It's too bad you talked to the bride. When I planned my own wedding, the one thing I did was shelter my wife from any day-of-wedding details. I specifically told everyone on that day with any business to stay away from her. We did designate her sister as a contact for all the vendors and she knew to only approach me with any issues. Emotions are so high that even many grooms shouldn't be dealt with, but not always. I guess the lesson is to always request a designated contact for these types of events. Now if the bride and groom designate themselves, then that's a different story.
Thanks for sharing your experience. Good luck with your next one. |
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OddThomas
BBQ Super Pro
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 2010
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Jul 26 2007 Post subject: |
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| marvsbbq wrote: | | We just didn't think it would be proper to charge a client for extra guests that they MIGHT have. |
Oh... well I was thinking more like a refundable sort of deal not a full on charge. Sort of like a "just in case" fund you hold to cover unexpected guests. Regardless I don't think it will work for other reasons.
I have another idea that might work, but I'm going to start a new thread to discuss it... |
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Big Brother Smoke
BBQ Fan
Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 269
Location: Ventura, CA
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| Posted: Jul 26 2007 Post subject: |
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I ain't no 2 bit anything!
J/K
I have to agree, it must be based on where you live. But my problem is the definition. To me, it's a service charge, call it what it is even if the people gripe. I've been in the service business a long time and charge a fee and get a tip when one feels obliged to give one. If I feel my work deserves more, I won't slap someone with a mandatory gratuity, I'll just charge more. Why? Because I'm a professional in my business and should charge what I'm worth in the first place. PAZ!![img]http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e158/meximorrobbq/emoticons/peace.jpg[/img]
I guess all cateres who charge a mandatory gratuity are unprofessional  
We just need to agree to disagree! |
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