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Recipe stealing - Ethics vs. Legal
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HarvestMoon
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 1:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Recipe stealing - Ethics vs. Legal Reply with quote

roxy wrote:

The only ones that I know of that copyright a recipe are the big chains that can afford to spend money doing so or want to protect their interests.


I have a feeling that the big chains would Trademark their dishes instead of Copyrighting them.
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allsmokenofire
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my take, FWIW.

Anyone who would take a recipe that wasn't theirs and claim it as theirs, just because it wasn't ILLEGAL or UNETHICAL(in thier mind) has just shown themselves, and everyone else, their complete lack of character.

Anyone who cooks a fair amount has a pretty good understanding that there are very few "original" recipes left out there. However, I see no harm, and feel it's only right, to give credit to the people that have inspired you to create, tweak, bastardize, or convolute whatever type of creation that you come up with.

I also feel strongly, that if you want to go public with your "truly original" creation, with no credit given to any inspiration you might have had, that you implicitly agree to subject yourself to the scrutiny of your peers as to the merits of your "truly original" creation.

As a side note, I'm also a HUGE believer in kharma....and the belief that what goes around comes around. Do you really want to be looking over your shoulder for the other shoe to drop because you tried to pass off someone else's toils as your own?? Cool
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BBQMAN
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with what's been said.

I love Roxy's sauce as well, and with the minor exception of adding a little more sugar, the recipe is the same. We call it Roxy's Mustard Sauce as well, it just seems the right thing to do. And agreeing with Mike (allsmoke) the karma thing is a good point! Very Happy

I've probably shared this story before, but here it is again (as it pertains to this thread).

When I first got started, we wanted a sauce of our own and looked at a lot of "base" recipes for BBQ sauce.

A guy at work offered me his sisters recipe for BBQ sauce. all the basics were there that you would find in ANY COOKBOOK.

So he wants to know how big the letters on my banners were going to be advertising "Joe Blows Sister's BBQ Sauce Used Here"

I thought he was kidding, but evidently not.

I explained the whole base recipe concept, and gave him back the recipe with the modifications that I had already made thus far (6 or 7).

The guy proceeds to tell anyone and everyone that I'm a dirt-bag for stealing his sisters recipe and calling it my own!

So I bring my mom's church cookbook from 1977 (I doubt the sister was old enough at the time to be making BBQ sauce, but I could be wrong) with almost the EXACT SAME RECIPE. Same recipe with a few added extras that once again you can find in any cookbook anywhere.

I asked him why his sister copied my moms recipe, and was calling it her own! Wink Rolling Eyes Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

My karma held out, and I went on the establish my own business.

His ran out when the company joined up with the parent company in Iowa, and shut it's doors for good two years after I left.
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Rubit
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have noticed in recent years on TV chefs and bakers a trend toward using odd measurements like one cup plus a teaspoon. I figure this is a way to make it original. More than once I have seen a recipe of mine be posted as someone else's but I don't think they meant to do anything other than share a good recipe.'
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Skidder
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too have a story. I ride Harleys and was reading a biker magazine about a man in Florida who has a party (free) at his house every year. So for 20 years he worked on his chili recipe and actually printed it in the magazine. I tried making it and everyone including my kids and friends want me to make "MY" chili! It actually won judges choice at the Conn. Chili Cookoff that my oldest daughter competed in. Well anyways I have to constantly remind everyone that this is not "MY " recipe but something another man took 20 years to perfect and perfect "HE" did not me.

Last edited by Skidder on Fri Sep 05 08 8:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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RodinBangkok
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best way to protect your recipes formulas is to keep them a secret. Do not disclose any details about formulation, or process. Since the advent of the internet it seems folks want it both ways, disclose in detail process's and recipes, then get upset when someone uses this information. All the talk about trademark copyright etc is just a waste of time when it comes to a products content, and besides that even if you have some way of protecting something, you better have the funds to back it up in court. There are many patents violated this way by the big guys who have the legal departments to fight a patent case against the individual that may own it, simply because they do not have the resources to litigate. This is why some of the legendary recipes are considered simply trade secrets. KFC spice blend, or the Coke formula. These are know by very few people with regards to the total formula. One company may blend 50% of a formulation, another the balance, and so on. Even in a mom and pop operation, if you want that secret sauce to remain so you must make it yourself, or make a blend of ingredients that is then added to a common base. Never give out the recipe for use by employees, etc. The advise goes against the idea of forums on the net, but its really the only way to protect it, don't let anyone know what it is.
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CrazyChef
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

roxy wrote:
That is about as close to accolades or recognition as I will get..

How's this - I have 2 sauces on my menu - "All smokehouse items served with choice of CrazyChef's KC style BBQ sauce or Roxy's NC style sauce".

Sorry, but I tweaked your sauce to make it more shelf stable - substituted granulated garlic and onion powder for fresh, and added a little bit of honey.

People are loving it! Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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BBQMAN
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrazyChef wrote:
roxy wrote:
That is about as close to accolades or recognition as I will get..

How's this - I have 2 sauces on my menu - "All smokehouse items served with choice of CrazyChef's KC style BBQ sauce or Roxy's NC style sauce".

Sorry, but I tweaked your sauce to make it more shelf stable - substituted granulated garlic and onion powder for fresh, and added a little bit of honey.

People are loving it! Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy


It's SC, not NC Crazy! Wink
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CrazyChef
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBQMAN wrote:
It's SC, not NC Crazy! Wink

Oops - my bad! I have to print some more menus/fliers today, so I'll change it. What the he!! was I thinking? Embarassed

I usually pay more attention to detail than that...
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BBQMAN
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrazyChef wrote:
BBQMAN wrote:
It's SC, not NC Crazy! Wink

Oops - my bad! I have to print some more menus/fliers today, so I'll change it. What the he!! was I thinking? Embarassed

I usually pay more attention to detail than that...


Kinda like when you pay attention to ordering domain names? Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

Sorry dude, could not resist! Mr. Green
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CrazyChef
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

I'll be getting crap for that for a while...

Hey, I'm only (a drunk) human! Laughing Laughing
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JimmieOhio
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBQMAN wrote:
It's SC, not NC Crazy! Wink

Roxy's from Ontario, Canada anyway, so it probably doesn't matter if you call it North or South Dakota!

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

(Had to get that dig in, but I love his sauce.)
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Jeff_From_VA
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05 08 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry Nutczak wrote:
I am aware of a court case where there was a family fued that involved an Italian Sausage recipe.

The family ran 2 different restaurants together with the same menu and name in perfect harmony for over 50 years.

Then they had some disagreements and seperated into 2 different ownershipped business's.

Each clained they had the original sausage recipe (it is really good stuff BTW and almost worth killing over to have this secret recipe)

The judge in this case ruled that neither one of the 2 factions could use the exact original recipe for sausage anymore. and each must change or omit a part of the recipe ingredients or amounts to legally use it.

neither place has the exact taste I remember from childhood, but the place the sisters own is closest to what I remember the taste as being.

I have been trying to duplicate the recipe from taste for over 20 years now and have not been successful. I have tried to bribe some cooks, but the sausage was always made by the owners under secretive surroundings.

It is now made under contract by a meat purveyor named UWP., it is kept in a safe and only a few key people in that business know the recipe.

I have tried bribing them, begged for a raw sample. asked to buy it under the table and I cannot get it from them no matter what I offer.

Everytime I am at the restaurant I beg for 5-10 pounds of raw sausage to take home with me, it will never happen.


if anyone thinks they can duplicate this recipe by taste of the cooked product, I will fly you to the city where the restaurant is and pay you hansomely for duplicating it and even make you a partner in the sauage business I would start from this recipe. We would be millionaires in less than 6 months!!


BTW, the names of the restaurants involved are DeMarinis & Mama DeMarinis in Milwuakee WI.

If you've eaten there, you'll understand what I am talking about


There is a place in my town that has a chili bean recipe that I know more than a few, including myself, have tried to recreate. So far we have had no luck. It taste like mostly cumin, but there is something else and we have had no luck figuring it out. These people have been in business since 1930. Real good stuff. Not a typical bowl of red chili, but it's damn good.
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SmokinOkie
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06 08 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

h00kemh0rns wrote:

....All in all...I don't see the point to any of the "give credit" or "plagirism". I say open source to all recipes, give accolades if you wish, don't if you don't want to, and spin the recipes however you wish.


That's not how the Ringers work for sure. If we use someone's recipe, we give them credit for that recipe. It's the right thing to do.

It's not about open source or legalities, it's about a civilized society using someone else's work (certainly within the same forum) but taking credit for it.

I've seen recipes from here, copied verbatum on other sites and someone takes credit for it without giving any reference.

Mike post was on point. I believe in Karma too.
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h00kemh0rns
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06 08 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What happened to imitation is the sincerest form of flattery? I'm not saying passing something off as your own creation. I don't agree with that but at the same time I don't care if someone does it. Kinda comical when they say it's theirs and they get found out (several references even with McCain's wife stealing Rachel Rays passing them off as a 'McCain Family recipe') Rather, I'm referring to simply using or posting without paying homage to the originator. If I post a recipe saying "hey this recipe is a good one...give it a try" without giving props is that really such a bad thing?
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allsmokenofire
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06 08 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

h00kemh0rns wrote:
If I post a recipe saying "hey this recipe is a good one...give it a try" without giving props is that really such a bad thing?


No...but if you post a recipe saying" hey, this is a recipe I came up with and it's really good", and it's not a recipe you came up with....than that's bad, IMO.
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lantern
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06 08 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of chef's....

I've been a fan of Mario Batali for some time, but in an episode of Iron Chef America he showed me what kind of guy he really is. Before he even started he told the judges that he stole the ideas for almost all the dishes. And before each and every dish was served he gave credit to, by name, the chef he learned it from. That's some good character shining through there.

Anyway, I'm enjoying this thread quite a bit. Smile
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OddThomas
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06 08 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

allsmokenofire wrote:
h00kemh0rns wrote:
If I post a recipe saying "hey this recipe is a good one...give it a try" without giving props is that really such a bad thing?

No...but if you post a recipe saying" hey, this is a recipe I came up with and it's really good", and it's not a recipe you came up with....than that's bad, IMO.

It's not a bad thing, but I think it'd still be best to cite the source if you know it; otherwise folks might assume it's your work.
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OddThomas
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06 08 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RodinBangkok wrote:
The best way to protect your recipes formulas is to keep them a secret. Do not disclose any details about formulation, or process.

“Note that if you have secret ingredients to a recipe that you do not wish to be revealed, you should not submit your recipe for registration, because applications and deposit copies are public records.”

http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-protect.html#recipe
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Fitz
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06 08 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On ethics Henny Youngman said it best.

A man is teaching his son about ethics. " A woman comes in to your store and buys a bolt of fabric and pays you with a $100 bill. When she leaves you discover she accidentaly gave you two $100 bills. Now this is where the ethics come in.. do you or do you not tell your partner?"
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