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KCBS Juding and Ways to Improve It
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jvreeland
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08 07 10:53 pm    Post subject: KCBS Juding and Ways to Improve It Reply with quote

Quote:
DISCLAIMER: For those that read this on the KCBS Board please do not take these comments as we hate the system as many of us do not. We just want to make the KCBS the best BBQ circuit out there. So as members we would like to voice some of our concerns and provide feedback on improvements.


After reading Gordon's post over here about the issues he experienced at the American Royal - I thought I would start this thread on ways in which the KCBS can improve judging.

First off - I think at a bare minimum we need to start tracking the scoring of judges. This is without a doubt the biggest step we can make to working with judges to make their scores more uniform across the chart.

Second - Going one step further I think a simple review after the table has finished judging the box on why everyone scored they way they did would be great. I am sure we can come up with a simple piece of paper that has the standardized issues with boxes/meats. For example, on a brisket box a judge could not like the brisket because it was too tough, dry, bad seasoning, cut too big, etc...
If we had this simple sheet we could better understand from the cooks side why it was scored the way it was.

Third - (and this could be a radical move, so do not crucify me) nobody is a judge if they are not a CBJ. Stop bring people off the street. Is it going to result in judges having multiple rounds of boxes, yes - but at least we have certified judges judging the competitions.

I know others have some ideas on things that can be improved so please post them.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09 07 12:03 am    Post subject: Re: KCBS Juding and Ways to Improve It Reply with quote

jvreeland wrote:
Quote:
DISCLAIMER: For those that read this on the KCBS Board please do not take these comments as we hate the system as many of us do not. We just want to make the KCBS the best BBQ circuit out there. So as members we would like to voice some of our concerns and provide feedback on improvements.


I agree, it has nothing to do with hating the system. I agree with your statement.[/color

After reading Gordon's post over here about the issues he experienced at the American Royal - I thought I would start this thread on ways in which the KCBS can improve judging.

First off - I think at a bare minimum we need to start tracking the scoring of judges. This is without a doubt the biggest step we can make to working with judges to make their scores more uniform across the chart.

[color=blue]Yes, as I stated in the other thread.


Second - Going one step further I think a simple review after the table has finished judging the box on why everyone scored they way they did would be great. I am sure we can come up with a simple piece of paper that has the standardized issues with boxes/meats. For example, on a brisket box a judge could not like the brisket because it was too tough, dry, bad seasoning, cut too big, etc...
If we had this simple sheet we could better understand from the cooks side why it was scored the way it was.

I know as a cook, I would want some feedback as how to improve my turnin. and again it would allow both cooker and judge hone their skills.


Third - (and this could be a radical move, so do not crucify me) nobody is a judge if they are not a CBJ. Stop bring people off the street. Is it going to result in judges having multiple rounds of boxes, yes - but at least we have certified judges judging the competitions.

I dont think its radical at all. If you need open heart surgery and the Doc doesnt show up, you dont go to the parking lot of the hospital and ask the first person you see to head to the operation room and scrub up.
As a judge I wouldnt care if I had to judge a few more boxes. I agree 100% with this. Just looking at the scores for the open it was TOO OBVIOUS that most judges couldnt have been certified. It just was way to out there. I have never seen anything like it before.


I know others have some ideas on things that can be improved so please post them.
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DawgPhan
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09 07 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

funny thing about the AR...I dont think that I have ever talked to anyone that had to travel a significant distance to compete in the AR that really wanted to go back. Seems like a great time if you are more local, but everyone that I have talked to that have traveled to the open and invitational have come back saying that they will never make the trip again.
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jvreeland
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09 07 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DawgPhan wrote:
funny thing about the AR...I dont think that I have ever talked to anyone that had to travel a significant distance to compete in the AR that really wanted to go back. Seems like a great time if you are more local, but everyone that I have talked to that have traveled to the open and invitational have come back saying that they will never make the trip again.


That is so disappointing to hear. I think every BBQ Competition team dreams of one day making it to the invitational and open. With comments like that though it really discourages anyone from wanting to go.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09 07 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
At mt last comp,( Linda Muldane? Sits on the KCBS board)
She is running an experiment. If any score is less than a 5 the judge is required to fill out a card that goes to the contestant. Now that being said. We got DQed on our chicken as a misterious toothpick ended up in our box. So the only feedback I recieved was " toothpick in box"

I would like to see the results if we had gotten a low score,without the toothpick. The only thing I could see wrong with this process is now the judge might be inclined to give you his version of what is good BBQ. Or he might be inclined to compare your entry as oppsed to rate it. I don't know but it is a good start, I think.


This was what I had posted on Gordons page! I am courious has anyone else recieved any feed back at there comps? And if so was it helpfull and what type of feedback did they give you?

This was at the Bridgeton King Pig Comp.
I know she and Jack are the reps at our next event in Dover,DE so I expect it to be the same format with the feed back cards? That is in 2 weeks.
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Jeff Hughes
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09 07 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been to several comps that used the feedback cards. They were almost useless.

I understand that it would be great to have all CBJs. But, these folks are not paid, and there would be a heck of a lot less comps on the circuit it we only relied on the certified pool.

It's funny, IBCA only uses folks off the street, you don't hear a lot of complaining from about those judges...
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09 07 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff Hughes wrote:
I've been to several comps that used the feedback cards. They were almost useless.

I understand that it would be great to have all CBJs. But, these folks are not paid, and there would be a heck of a lot less comps on the circuit it we only relied on the certified pool.

It's funny, IBCA only uses folks off the street, you don't hear a lot of complaining from about those judges...


I keep hearing that excuse of not being paid. That doesnt fly with me.
I'm not familiar with IBCA and thier rules so I cant comment. I think its the way KCBS presents itself. If contests were free I think your point would be valid, but when you spend major cash, you should expect a well run event with knowledgable people and judges.

I gave the one example of a table captain that never did it before manhandling boxes to the point I was sure some presentations were disturbed and that surely isnt fair to the teams. In just the short time I have been competing and judging, the growth of KCBS events has been increasing at a fast pace with more and bigger events. Maybe its growing pains. This is supposed to be fun, but is surely increasing about the bottom line-money- money for promotors,vendors etc.

For me, I think a few changes would improve everything for everyone all around and make the experience more enjoyable...
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09 07 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gorden

I'm not defending the KCBS or the Royal. Changes may be needed.

I'm just saying, there is a lot if chit tossed at the judges, and they are giving their time up to let us compete, and they deserve more credit that they are given. Beef with organizers, the KCBS, or the individual reps, but please don't blame the judges. You are headed to the Jack where there are almost no CBJ's.

Now, to the real subject at hand.

It sounds like the Royal was more zoo like than usual. Cancer Sucks Chicago had a brisket stolen, and still managed to make the top 10 with whatever he had to turn in. Ya don't think he's pissed?

I know the Rep team was not the same as in the past.

It's a bummer when a contest is not well run. I know of one rep team that I will avoid at all costs. I also know of three rep teams that I would travel great distances to compete in their contests as well.

There is no question our sport is experiencing growing pains.

Good Luck At The Jack--Jeff
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09 07 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there might be more CBJs if it didn't cost so much to get certified. So you are asking for people to pay to get certified and then volunteering to go to events and judge. Where is the incentive to be a certified judge???

And I would imagine most of the people going through the certification process are actually comp teams trying to find out what judges are looking for -- with no plans to ever judge an event.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09 07 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff Hughes wrote:
I've been to several comps that used the feedback cards. They were almost useless.

I understand that it would be great to have all CBJs. But, these folks are not paid, and there would be a heck of a lot less comps on the circuit it we only relied on the certified pool.

It's funny, IBCA only uses folks off the street, you don't hear a lot of complaining from about those judges...


Can or would you share what do the judges reply with? I know you said it is usless but what type of info do they respond with?

Overcooked?
To Spicey?
To Sweet?
Give it up stupid? J/K
Just courious
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jvreeland
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09 07 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SStory wrote:
I think there might be more CBJs if it didn't cost so much to get certified. So you are asking for people to pay to get certified and then volunteering to go to events and judge. Where is the incentive to be a certified judge???

And I would imagine most of the people going through the certification process are actually comp teams trying to find out what judges are looking for -- with no plans to ever judge an event.


It really is not that expensive. I think all together (including my KCBS membership fee) it was like $65. To me, that is not that expensive for becoming a certified judge - as all you do is take a short 3 or 4 hours course and eat some Que.
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SmokinOkie
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09 07 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep in mind (my opinion) just because you're a CBJ, doesn't mean you know how to judge. I've seen PLENTY of weird scores at contests that were 100% CBJ. And many, many, many contests just won't get CBJ's.

For example, the whole issues of "bite through skin" is NOT in the rules, but has been perpetuated through the internet and judges who "think" they know how to judge good Q.

I agree with tracking Judge's scores. Similar to Football where there is a head judge the reviews all judges after a game, KCBS could do it too.

I would like to see a requirement that to be CBJ, they have to cook with a team; say before their 5th contest (have to give them time to find a team) but they can't judge after that. Now THAT would open their eyes, especially when they look at their score sheet and ask "what were they thinking"
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jvreeland
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09 07 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SmokinOkie wrote:

I would like to see a requirement that to be CBJ, they have to cook with a team; say before their 5th contest (have to give them time to find a team) but they can't judge after that. Now THAT would open their eyes, especially when they look at their score sheet and ask "what were they thinking"


This is a requirement for the Table captain is it not?

Would not be a bad idea to push it down to the CBJ's. I know I would love to have a Judge come sit with us at one competition and see how it works.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09 07 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jvreeland wrote:
SmokinOkie wrote:

I would like to see a requirement that to be CBJ, they have to cook with a team; say before their 5th contest (have to give them time to find a team) but they can't judge after that. Now THAT would open their eyes, especially when they look at their score sheet and ask "what were they thinking"


This is a requirement for the Table captain is it not?

Would not be a bad idea to push it down to the CBJ's. I know I would love to have a Judge come sit with us at one competition and see how it works.


It is a requirement for Master CBJ's, not Table captains...
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09 07 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mutha chicken bbq wrote:

Can or would you share what do the judges reply with? I know you said it is usless but what type of info do they respond with?

Overcooked?
To Spicey?
To Sweet?
Give it up stupid? J/K
Just courious


I'll see what I can dig up.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09 07 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me start by stating that I have never judged a comp. I did sit through the CBJ class and I’ve been cooking for a long time so, from that perspective:

Becoming a CBJ should mean something more that “I have $40, a pulse, and 4 hours to kill.” I sat through the class and was stunned at the lack of any standard in regard to how to judge. It was like sitting in a trendy shrink’s session. Every question was answered with “but how does it taste to you?” This is not the path to consistency.

What to do? KCBS could/should:

Standardize the turn in requirements - particularly in Chicken. Skin off/skin on, it doesn’t matter, but pick one so all judges see a level playing field. The same applies to sauce - on/off/on the side - PICK ONE and mandate it. Brisket - sliced or chopped, and so on. Stop trying to make the judges into mind readers with things like “judge it as the cook intended it”. What????

Allow judges to talk about the entries with the table captain as moderator. This would go a long way in stopping the wild disparity in scoring. The judges still score individually but they can communicated the pluses/minuses of entries prior.

Give the cooks meaningful feedback - instruct judges to use terms that people can relate to. “Terrible” and “Wonderful” are descriptive terms but hardly quantifiable or helpful. On the other hand “Tough” “Dry” “Salty” “Sweet” “Tender” “Moist” and so on not only give feedback cooks can understand they can also help judges when adjudicating a score.

My 2 cents.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09 07 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mutha chicken bbq wrote:
Jeff Hughes wrote:
I've been to several comps that used the feedback cards. They were almost useless.

I understand that it would be great to have all CBJs. But, these folks are not paid, and there would be a heck of a lot less comps on the circuit it we only relied on the certified pool.

It's funny, IBCA only uses folks off the street, you don't hear a lot of complaining from about those judges...


Can or would you share what do the judges reply with? I know you said it is usless but what type of info do they respond with?

Overcooked?
To Spicey?
To Sweet?
Give it up stupid? J/K
Just courious


Mutha',

The comment cards that I have see (as table captain not competitor) were just as you mentioned... "too salty", "very little flavor", etc. Which, I think, could be of some use to me as a competitor.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09 07 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff Hughes wrote:
Gorden

I'm not defending the KCBS or the Royal. Changes may be needed.

I'm just saying, there is a lot if chit tossed at the judges, and they are giving their time up to let us compete, and they deserve more credit that they are given. Beef with organizers, the KCBS, or the individual reps, but please don't blame the judges. You are headed to the Jack where there are almost no CBJ's.

Now, to the real subject at hand.

It sounds like the Royal was more zoo like than usual. Cancer Sucks Chicago had a brisket stolen, and still managed to make the top 10 with whatever he had to turn in. Ya don't think he's pissed?

I know the Rep team was not the same as in the past.

It's a bummer when a contest is not well run. I know of one rep team that I will avoid at all costs. I also know of three rep teams that I would travel great distances to compete in their contests as well.

There is no question our sport is experiencing growing pains.

Good Luck At The Jack--Jeff


huh? as in stole it from his cooler or cooker overnight or something?

that is some ill karma coming someone's way...


also after doing a FBA event this weekend I must say that I really enjoyed their score sheets which list the table that a team was at along with the judges that they got...you can see if you did well on a bad table or did poorly on a good table...plus I was told that FBA tracks judges scoring and simply doesnt ask them to be judges anymore.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09 07 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chad

Stolen from his cooker and he knows who did it...

Nice call with that 1st in ribs among many heavy hitters in Florida last weekend...

Jeff
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09 07 3:38 am    Post subject: Comment cards Reply with quote

I could not find any comment cards, but here's what I recall.

I received comment cards at Sallisaw and OKC Remington this year. All three cards were for chicken. Scores were at least 888 from all three judges. Comment were like "tasty and tender", "great sauce, great flavor", stuff like that.

That's not telling me anything more that what the numbers do.

I'd like comments when I get a five(or below heaven forbid).

I like the comment card idea, it just needs some fine tuning...
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